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Message started by srgs9 on Apr 6th, 2004 at 10:20am

Title: A wooly question, or two
Post by srgs9 on Apr 6th, 2004 at 10:20am
I was gifted some angora at the fair last weekend, single ply. The only main problem is I don't trust my brading and don't want to sacrifice good wool(even though it was free and the guy will give me a price break). I was wondering if some one could give me a better discription on "round brading".  Also I was thinking of adding some soften jute,or some such, as a filler and to add abit more color to the project.
I'd also thought about making a sling out of embrodrey floss but I'm not sure how well the stuff would hold up even corded and braded. Any ideas?

Anyway their web site is   www.jeanette@laffing-horse.com

Thanks

Title: Re: A wooly question, or two
Post by Matthias on Apr 6th, 2004 at 12:27pm
I hope they gifted you some angora goat, rather than angora rabbit... as I notice that they have both. Goat fibre is usually called mohair to differentiate. It is nice and strong, but will stretch a bit more than I'd want. I'd try experimenting with felting the finished sling as well, that stuff really grabs... The rabbit will fall apart - even delicately handled clothes items "drift".

If you are friendly with Shawn and Jeanette, I'd see if you could coax them into spinning (spinners are about as hard to get spinning something new/different as slingers are to try out a new sling - and you don't need very much) some llama hair. If he/she uses extra guard hair (which is often not used here in NA) and spins "worsted" with fairly hard twist, I think you'd have some pretty fine replica sling yarn.

Anyone with Andean sling fibre knowledge care to join in? I'm a fibre processor in a former life (muskox - which matches up pretty well against Peruvian vicuña) but don't have much first hand knowledge on what was used historically in this area.

Matthias

Title: Re: A wooly question, or two
Post by Hobb on Apr 6th, 2004 at 7:03pm
I don't know much about fibers, but round braiding around a core is fairly easy (if time consuming).  There are some good links on the links page of this site with drawings.  Basically, start with an even number of strands, half in each hand, one hand on either side of your core.  Take the strand on the far right back, around and behind the core to the opposite side, then weave it under/over/under/over 'til you get it back to it's own side/hand, this time on the inside instead of the outside.  Then take the strand on the far left back, around, and behind the core and do the same thing.  Back to the right, back to the left, etc.  I've seen pictures of softer woolen strands woven around courser, presumably stronger materials, but I've never tried it.

Title: Re: A wooly question, or two
Post by JeffH on Apr 6th, 2004 at 8:45pm
srgs9,

E-mail me privately at theholts@bellsouth.net.  I will send you some pics I just did for doing  a 4 strand round plait.  This technique works with any multiple of four strands as well.

I used four colors of string to help see what is going on.  I made an html file out of my sling instructions, found in the gallery, for a friend without the internet.  I made the plating instructions for him as well.

Maybe I should write up some instructions and let Chris post this in the gallery, eh?  Will consider

jeff <><

Title: Re: A wooly question, or two
Post by Chris on Apr 7th, 2004 at 12:20am
Yes Jeff, please do!

Chris

Title: Re: A wooly question, or two
Post by english on Apr 7th, 2004 at 3:21am
I find that four strand round plaits take too much time.  I guess I am just not good at it.  In order to plait with four strands, you have to take the strand furthest to the left and twist it round the back of the following two strands and then over the second of those two strands into the middle, and then do the same but from the right.  In order to plait with three strands, you just put the strand furthest to the left over the middle, and then the strand furthest right over that one, which is now the middle.  So you can do a plait much quicker with three.  But four works.

Title: Re: A wooly question, or two
Post by Ulrica on Apr 7th, 2004 at 6:34am

wrote on Apr 7th, 2004 at 3:21am:
 I find that four strand round plaits take too much time.  
So you can do a plait much quicker with three.  But four works.


I guess it´s just about a question fo practice. I can make a fourbraid almost as fast as a tree-one.

/Ulrica

Title: Re: A wooly question, or two
Post by Hobb on Apr 7th, 2004 at 11:05am
If you're not using a core, there's a shortcut to the four-strand method.  Arrange the strands in a square, then just criss-cross the opposing strands -- top & bottom go clockwise, left & right go counterclockwise as you interchange them (or vice-versa).  I find it a little faster, almost as fast as the 3-strand braid.

Title: Re: A wooly question, or two
Post by english on Apr 8th, 2004 at 5:37am
I guess I just need to practise.  I don't think it could be as fast as three strand braiding, because the movement is more complex, but wih practise, it could be nearly so, I suppose.  Anyway, I will get some string today and get practising.  I think you can make cut price rope if you use a four strand braid using string.  It costs about £1.50 for a six inch diameter ball.  I have tried making rope with a three strand braid, but it is flat (and can only be), and this is bad because the rope would kink all the time, so I will try with a four strand.

Title: Re: A wooly question, or two
Post by srgs9 on Apr 8th, 2004 at 8:25am
Thanks Jeff and all,
Sometimes I think I've forgotten more than I knew. (The same is true with what's left of my ablity to speak Russian, at least string doesn't care about spelling or grammer  ;) ...)

Once things slow down later, I'll see what kind of a mess I can make.


Title: Re: A wooly question, or two
Post by justbarak on Apr 8th, 2004 at 1:21pm
Round  braiding is not difficult, just time consuming.  I highly recommend using the Japanese Maru Dai (check out braidershand.com) for braiding.  The 250 braides book is fantastic.  But there are lots of web sites that outline how to do a round braid.  I would recommend getting some cheap yarn or cheap wool and braiding a foot or two using the pattern you like most.  That way you get a feel for how it works, braiding tension, etc.  You'll be happier with your results on your actual sling.  It's harder to unbraid mistakes than it is to braid.  

Embroidery floss  !!Fantastic For Slings!!  My first slings were embroidery floss and it is still my favorite stuff - I like wool only because it's authentic.  Individual floss strands are nearly impossible to break (whereas wool strands can be broken, but once braided they are more than strong enough), they are not slippery like nylon and so braid easily, they come in a thousand colors, they don't rot with moisture, and they look like a natural fibre so the slings appear more authentic (as opposed to nylon).  Go with DMC size 5.  There is less color selection, but the larger strands make for a sling that is about the diameter of a number 2 pencil which is ideal in my opinion (this is for a 16 strand braid or an 8 strand with an 8 core).

anyway, my two cents.

Title: Re: A wooly question, or two
Post by Hobb on Apr 8th, 2004 at 6:00pm
No. 5 Embroidery Floss -- That's a hobby-shop thing, right?  Hobby Lobby or Michael's?  I'm using nylon twine, now, but the colors are kind of limited & the rope's coming out stiff (this is with a 16 strand braid).  I'm sure the rope will break in, but more color choices would be nice.

Title: Re: A wooly question, or two
Post by Whipartist on Apr 8th, 2004 at 7:03pm
Embroidery floss for slings.  I always wondered about that.  Thanks Barak.  Maybe I'll give it a try someday myself.  I wonder if you could double up the smaller strands to give more color variation?  I bought some loppy wool yarn that looked good online, but broke so easily I couldn't braid it when it got here.  Stay away from loppy wool yarn!  It's quite hard to find good wool to braid slings.  Jeff H. says that the stuff the Peruvian slings are made of is really nice (he's been altering his slings a bit) and we're looking into whether we could purchase that stuff.  If anyone knows about good natural color, natural fiber, wool yarn, let me know.  I haven't found any anywhere.

                                              Ben    

Title: Sling fibres
Post by Matthias on Apr 8th, 2004 at 11:48pm
You guys that are serious about natural fibre slings should look into the possibility of spinning you own! A few ounces of llama/alpaca/sheep will cost practically nothing and you can make your yarn to spec.

The quantities required for sling construction are so small that simple spindle or even "thigh" spinning is more than enough - no need for cards/wheels etc... You can be almost sure that the fibre used in traditional andean slings was spun on a drop spindle.

Matthias

Title: Re: A wooly question, or two
Post by Ulrica on Apr 9th, 2004 at 8:43am
hmmm.
I like the picture of men sitting and spinning.  ;D
So far I just have seen pictures of women doing that.  :)

I never tried it so far as I can remember..
Isn´t hard and difficult to learn and to do it well?

If I only knew how to braid a nice sling with split pouch I would really conciderate learning spinning too.

Ulrica

Title: Re: A wooly question, or two
Post by srgs9 on Apr 9th, 2004 at 9:41am
Ulrica,
From the brief lesson on drop spinners it seems pretty easy. Also alot faster than finger twisting the wool, or other fiber into cordage.
The drop spinner is a pretty simple gizmo. Pretty much a dowel with a hook(carved is more my taste as I tend to lean toward primitave stuff) in one end and fly wheel on the other making the thing look like a strange toy top.

So far I've made eight braided split pouch slings from hemp and jute. The only draw back to the jute is starting to make my fingers a bit raw, but it's a heck of alot cheaper than hemp. Either way it only takes me about an hour to make a braided split pouch sling. I still haven't dug into my angora(goat btw) or gotten veary far with plaiting yet.
Prehaps it's just me but the split pouch seems to release diffrent. Using the same over hand style as my leather pouches they tend to arch ammo badly. It would be great if there was a reason to lob rocks over a 40' wall. ;D

Title: Re: A wooly question, or two
Post by english on Apr 10th, 2004 at 1:24pm
I am serious about natural fibres.  Could you please post images of these simplistic spinners?  I would like to know whether it is possible to make a piece of good cordage out of plant fibres or wool, because I have used nettle to make a very small piece of cord before by splitting it and braiding it.  I would like to know how to make a good reliable piece, possibly for slings.  Please?

Title: Re: A wooly question, or two
Post by Matthias on Apr 11th, 2004 at 12:53am
Hey Ulrica!!! LOTS of men spin (thanks to the still very heavily male dominated textile industry, I'd hazard that 97% of the world's yarn production is by men (and 500 ton machines  ;D) I admit that my mail order clientelle was 97% female though... and all but two of the 3% left over were husbands. I wouldn't be at all surprised if the peruvian shepherds (alpacherds?  ???) spun their own sling fibre on the spot while killing time.

I'll see if I can dig up some of my info once I get home... I've spun nettle (and gone through the processes of drying/retting/rippling/combing for larger amounts). Spun and plyed nettle will give many modern fibres a run for their money in terms of strength, longevity and low stretch. So will wool if properly handled. The stuff you buy in the store is obviously not intended for sling construction!!! I still have a wheel that I used for sampling, but sophisticated (if a centuries old technology like wooden flyer spinning wheels counts) tech is certantainly not required. Technology in textiles only adds speed...

A spindle has only two jobs: add twist, and store the yarn.

There is a LOT of info on the web about natural fibre procuring, preparation and spinning, and it sometimes difficult to cut though to the relevant stuff. There are significant (and easy) point to keep in mind when spinning cordage rather than yarn.

Keywords for searching the web:

You want "worsted" rather than "woolen" spinning. Worsted yarn has the fibres running parallel, while woolen use randomly oriented fibres to increase softness loft and insulation. Yarns intended for weaving are more often of worsted type, while most hand knitting yarns are spun woolen.

"Carding" is a process used to prep the yarn for woolen spinning. Worsted yarns are "combed" to pre-orient the fibres. You don't need a set of combs to do this though. drawing a clump of fibre apart, then stacking the two halves and repeating will give the same effect (only a little slower) the object is to aling the fibres.

"Spindle" choice is a personal prefference to a degree, and is indictated by your fibre. Drop spindles can be more frustrating to work with for beginners as they can get away from you. A "support spindle" works nicely, as does a thigh spindle...

Plying is twisting two or more strands together. Plying helps to stabilise the yarn by balancing twist. "Navajo" pying is a nice shortcut for a three ply yarn. The very small loss in strength over a regular three ply is prob not worth worrying about in braided construction

Hint: While you are spinning, you can get an idea of how much twist you are adding by letting a section of yarn "loop back on itself" (like a snarl in twisted fishing line) If it looks too loose, add more twist. More twist = stronger (up to a point) do a few samples until you get one that you like, then keep that one close so that you can compare twist and yardage every now and then to ensure consistency.

Animal fibres:

Llama / alpaca
Sheep - if you have the choice breeds like Romney, Border Leicester are prefferable to "softer" wools like Merino, Shetland or Corridale.
Silk!!! nice and strong, can make a hard/lustrous yarn (did the chinese use slings?)
Dog  :o Really!
Angora GOAT ) mohair (a little stretchy maybe)

Veggie:

Nettle  :'( I always end up stung, but it is still worth it!
Flax
Hemp  we used to use alot of hemp, then the close relationship with the mind altering variety chased it off the market... slowly coming back. If you want raw fibre, which kind is easier to find in your city?
Skip cotton...

Title: Re: A wooly question, or two
Post by Matthias on Apr 11th, 2004 at 12:58am
http://www.ealdormere.sca.org/university/flaxspinning.shtml is a decent summary of preparing and spinning bast fibres (nettle)

Title: Re: A wooly question, or two
Post by Ulrica on Apr 11th, 2004 at 9:05am
Wow, Matthias, you know a lot! I´m impressed!

Well, you are probably right, that more men sitting spinning, it´s just that I never have seen that.

/Ulrica

Title: Re: A wooly question, or two
Post by english on Apr 11th, 2004 at 9:18am

Quote:
Silk!!! nice and strong, can make a hard/lustrous yarn (did the chinese use slings?)
It is likely that the Chinese did use slings.  We know the Tibetans did, and still do.  However, the primary weapon of the Silk Road, as most people know, is the composite bow.  Mongols, Scythians, Avars, Chinese, and many other central Asian groups used the bow, and so the sling, if it was ever used, has been disregarded.
 Also, all the spinning stuff is very interesting.  I have been looking on the net for resources, and it looks quite difficult, really.  But I intend to give it a go sometime.

Title: Re: A wooly question, or two
Post by justbarak on Apr 14th, 2004 at 2:13am
Dog wool :o)  My first natural fibre sling was a combination of strands; camel, alpaca, goat/sheep, and nice blue dog hair.  It was quite a fancy sling.  Like most of my stuff, it got lost after about a year which was quite sad...

DMC - You definitely see it on embroidery floss at hobby lobby and michaels, however, it is a standard measurement used for most embroidery floss.  You'll see it in the craft section of walmart as well.  I've always used the size 5.  I had a friend who used the more standard size 25 (or maybe it's 23) and he just doubled the strands.  Funny thing though, his sling braid came out rectangular instead of round.  I think it's because the strands are fairly tight and so they don't squish together well and doubling a strand without actually twisting it creates a strand of an oblong cross section, such that it braids weird.  I don't know, that's the best theory we could come up with.  You could certainly just use size 25 with single strands and have a thin sling.  They actually look really cool that way b/c you have a finely braided cord that looks that much more intricate, it's still incredibly strong, and it cuts way down on wind resistance.  I'm still a huge fan of the wrist loop; in the case especially since the thinner string would cut my finger in half with a 5oz stone.  Using the size 25 strands would necessitate braiding in a more-than-usual number of strands for the cradle - triple or more, in order to get a decent size cradle.  

I've often thought about spinning.  I actually have plans for a cool little spinning wheel that we use in third world development.  It costs about $10 to make and uses a slip drive made up of a long rubber band around a drive shaft and a foot petal to power it.  The unit is about 8" tall and 10" long and clamps to counter edge.  It's kinda fun, but I've never actually made it or used it.  Just saw demos at an appropriate technology conference for third world development...

Barak

Title: Re: A wooly question, or two
Post by srgs9 on Apr 14th, 2004 at 10:41am
In the middle of a weekend long class, during a break, There was the sound of cussing mixed with laughing. There was two guys who shared a camp one of them brought his dog. While the owner of said long haired mut was off fooling around in the woods his camping budy got carried away making cordage. The dog was missing the long hair on about half of it's body and there was a nice 20ish foot long strand of dog wool rope... Strong stuff but I wouldn't want to get it wet.

I'm courious about the mini-spinner. Where can one find plans for the gizmo? ...
I just remembered something... There is a site bettertimes.org I think. They have all kinds of stuff on food storage,solar cookers, gardinig etc.  Although I don't subscribe to their religious path, it's still an informative site. I'll doubble check the web addy and get back if I botched that one...

Found it...http://www.bettertimesinfo.org/  It's worth noodling around in IMHO.  What made me think of it was solar ovens to bake clay glandes.

Title: Re: A wooly question, or two
Post by Matthias on Apr 14th, 2004 at 11:46am
DMC = "double mercerized cotton": the yarns are subjected to a treatment of Sodium Hydroxide (sometimes sulphuric acid) while being held under tension and heat. This shrinks the fibres (but they are held by the tension) and leads to a significant increase in strength, luster and absorbancy. For embroidery floss, the last two are the most important, as you get a nice shiny yarn with much higher dye take-up - for all of those intense colours... The yarns are probably flamed during manufacture too to get rid of all the frizzies.

It is very strong for a cotton yarn, but still not up to linen/nettle etc... I would think that polyester (dacron) would have started to make inroads in embroidery but I guess not (really bright colours, cheaper to produce, less fading) The animal fibres have potential for higher strength, but finding them in a similar construction (floss is normally what? 6 strands of three ply?) is impossible commercially.

Hah!  ;D You can get the wool out of the dog (usually all over the floor) but it is a lot harder to get the dog out of the wool!!! You can actually clean most animal fibres pretty well - fresh sheep smells pretty rank too. Problem is that you lose the lanolin that keeps it nice and strong / dry /durable.

I'd like to see your wheel too! Do you have the name of the group that was promoting them? The Indian Charka is credited for helping gain that country's independence from the British after Mahatma Ghandi challenged the populace to demonstrate that raw cotton export would not be accepted. The design spec was cheap and portable... It is a quill spinner, so no complicated flyer assembly is required. Not too many development project wheels have useable treadles though, so I'm curious about yours - this kind of work is important to me.

Anyone know what fibre the Tibetians use for slings? (mongols etc. too?) I'd guess that they would mostly use hair (yak/horse) rather than wool proper but am curious  8)

Matthias

Title: Re: A wooly question, or two
Post by english on Apr 14th, 2004 at 2:13pm
I think the Tibetans used Yak hair.  It is strong, very easy to dye, not stretchy.  And freely available.

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