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General >> Project Goliath - The History of The Sling >> David and Goliath - Airing on the BBC Sunday
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Message started by Chris on Mar 3rd, 2004 at 12:30pm

Title: David and Goliath - Airing on the BBC Sunday
Post by Chris on Mar 3rd, 2004 at 12:30pm
For those of you that can get BBC two, the documentary I assisted a bit on is airing this sunday.  It does have quite a bit of slinging involved.  

David and Goliath, Sunday 7 March on BBC Two, 13:30-14:20

We also got a nice link on their website:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/features/biblemysteries/david.shtml

Chris

Title: Re: David and Goliath - Airing on the BBC Sunday
Post by Johnny on Mar 3rd, 2004 at 2:36pm
Chris
After reading the article and considering the source(BBC), I have a feeling they will try every way to punch holes in the Biblical account of David and Goliath. It will be interesting.
Johnny

Title: Re: David and Goliath - Airing on the BBC Sunday
Post by TechStuf on Mar 3rd, 2004 at 3:59pm
Good point Johnny, and thanks for posting the URL Chris!   Dragging out the old 'gigantism' and tunnel vision crap again.   It is obvious that some would rather subscribe to such intellectual dishonesty than the archaeological evidence.   The Philistines, who were feared and accomplished soldiers would not even remotely consider sending a half blinded 'Robert Wadlow' into battle as their chosen champion!  Gimme a break....I have seen much evidence of the remains of true giants and their remains are  to scale without any trace of the effects of 'gigantism'.      Some of the skulls found were large enough to have enabled their owner to bite the head off of a normal adult human!  And look at the cranial capacity!   BTW,  not a single example has been found of 'cradle boarding' (A barbaric procedure that involves cradling the heads of infants to boards to get their skulls to grow deformed and enlongated) where increased cranial capacity was achieved any where even remotely close to what is shown.  It is my assertion that 'cradle boarding' by ancient cultures arose as an act of emulation by normal humans to appear as their one time 'gods',  the giants of old did.

Here is but one of dozens of examples to be found of the remains of the 'Giants of old':

 

It is interesting to note that so many of these skulls were found buried absent their bodies.......I wonder how many were removed by their own swords like David of Judah!

Some of the skulls found belonged to bodies which would make them 16 feet tall!  (that is unless one subscribes to the 'Giganticus Bobbleheadicus' theory) That is the height of the bottom power line on most street poles!  Yes,  we certainly would appear 'as grasshoppers' to them!  As a hobby,  I have studied cryptozoology for some time and it has provided many amazing discoveries, indeed.   Some of you may remember the old native american legend of the 'thunderbirds',  giant black birds that appeared before thunderstorms riding the leading edge of the storm front and grabbing children and even buffalo calves!   I have seen footage on the Discovery channel taken by a man canoeing down a river in illinois of two of these giants taking off from a tree....that tree was later tracked down and the branch they were perched on was quite large.   Here is link to a pic taken some time back in a Los Angeles Museum:

http://www.angelfire.com/electronic/bodhidharma/giantbirds3.html


So,  anomalous tunnel visioned mutated gigantism freaks?  No.   Anomalous half blind birds suffering from 'gigantism' flying around grabbing what ever they can lift off the ground?  I don't think so.....



Title: Re: David and Goliath - Airing on the BBC Sunday
Post by Johnny on Mar 3rd, 2004 at 4:12pm
Tech, you ROCK!
That was a great response! I think in that article by the BBC, they say the Philistines were"barbaric". The Philistines were a high culture that had an edge over most of their neighbors, they smithed iron. That photo was great! I'll check the website.
Johnny

Title: Re: David and Goliath - Airing on the BBC Sunday
Post by Johnny on Mar 3rd, 2004 at 4:14pm
I forgot, is that skull from the middle East?
Thanks

Title: Re: David and Goliath - Airing on the BBC Sunday
Post by english on Mar 3rd, 2004 at 4:39pm
I shall make a note of watching it.  So, this Sunday, BBC2, one thirty to two twenty... ok.  I should be in the house.  BBC2 is one of the best channels available on terrestrial tv in Britain, the other being Channel 4, for news coverage and good American shows, like Six Feet Under and all the others.  BBC2 is good for documentaries and humour.  If it is as good as the other documentaries on 2, then I won't want to miss it.  and as it is about a subject that (obviously) interests me, well... should be great.  Thanks for the tip off.

Title: Re: David and Goliath - Airing on the BBC Sunday
Post by TechStuf on Mar 3rd, 2004 at 11:13pm
Actually,  I believe these particular samples were found in Peru, believe it or not!  The remains of giants have been found on virtually every continent.  I have some information somewhere, I will have to dig out,  regarding remains of giants with 6 fingers and toes found in Asia.   In retrospect.....given the example above,  It sure makes it easier to believe that the biblical account was NOT embellished regarding David's having hit the giant and the stone sinking deep into his forehead!  Heck,  with a forehead like that....even I might have a chance at close range!

Title: Re: David and Goliath - Airing on the BBC Sunday
Post by Johnny on Mar 3rd, 2004 at 11:38pm
There was a giant that David's men fought that had 6 fingers and toes. It is found here: 2 Samuel 21:20 I would like to see the info you have on this! Keep up the good work!
JOhnny

Title: Re: David and Goliath - Airing on the BBC Sunday
Post by TechStuf on Mar 4th, 2004 at 11:16am
Here is a link to a new version of the page I had in mind.  I seem to remember different pictures which showed the skeletal evidence in more detail....will keep looking.

http://www.s8int.com/giants1.html

Title: Re: David and Goliath - Airing on the BBC Sunday
Post by Johnny on Mar 4th, 2004 at 2:28pm
Hi Tech!
I got the website! Thanks
Johnny
Acts 2:38!
Amen!

Title: Re: David and Goliath - Airing on the BBC Sunday
Post by edsomenz on Mar 7th, 2004 at 2:58am
was this ---ancient secrets of the bible---series i am from slinging@yahoogroups.com trying to contact DR STEVE GROSSCUP ANY ASSISTANCE  GRATEFULLY RECIEVED  

Title: Re: David and Goliath - Airing on the BBC Sunday
Post by english on Mar 7th, 2004 at 3:10pm
I watched the documentary, and it was actually very good.  That man was amazing with the sling, not the accuracy, because we didn't see much of that, but with the power.  As powerful as a .22!  Bloody hell.  And despite TechStuf's disapproval for the theory, the gigantism idea does seem extremely feasible.  And to be honest, I rather prefer the idea of king David being a ruthless man to the saintly, wise image portrayed in the Bible.  I have always said that the Bible is a work of fiction, (I am vehemently anti-religious), and it seems that even when it is talking of non-fictional characters, it is lying!  
Well anyway, jolly good stuff.

Title: Re: David and Goliath - Airing on the BBC Sunday
Post by Johnny on Mar 7th, 2004 at 5:19pm
Well English, that's your opinion and your entitled to it.
I do not believe the Bible is fiction, but fact. I don't have any use for religion myself, there are many false ones out there.  I just worship the descendant of David who killed Goliath, and I think you know his name. One of the reasons I have such an interest in the sling is because of the Bible.
Johnny
PS-Have you ever read the Bible through? If not, why are you so critical about something you haven't read?

Title: Re: David and Goliath - Airing on the BBC Sunday
Post by TechStuf on Mar 8th, 2004 at 1:00am
GOD bless you english.......for being selective in that which you choose to learn!  

(Your assignment english, should you choose to accept it....do an "extreme feasibility" study on the likelihood that the aforementioned statement 'will become' reality anytime soon.   ;)

Title: Re: David and Goliath - Airing on the BBC Sunday
Post by Dan_Bollinger on Mar 8th, 2004 at 9:18am
All this religion stuff is fine, but I gotta know.

Who won, David or Goliath?  ::)

Title: Re: David and Goliath - Airing on the BBC Sunday
Post by Johnny on Mar 8th, 2004 at 9:50am
Dan
Read 1 Samuel 17, the whole chapter.
The greatest duel in the history of the world!

Title: Re: David and Goliath - Airing on the BBC Sunday
Post by Hobb on Mar 8th, 2004 at 12:04pm
I wonder if the David and Goliath story has the same meaning today as it did when it was first told.  We live in an age where underdogs are beloved and we all root for the little guy, so it's easy to see how a boy against a giant appeals to modern-day western culture, but I wonder if the original message wasn't more like 'Don't bring a knife to a gunfight,' or 'God's chosen people are too clever for the big, stupid Philistines.'

Title: Re: David and Goliath - Airing on the BBC Sunday
Post by Johnny on Mar 8th, 2004 at 12:38pm
Hobb
The Philistines weren't exactly "stupid". Their culture was more advanced than Israel's. The main reason was their ability to smelt iron ore. The Philistines could make iron weapons and Israel only bronze. They also had cavalry and chariots. It was not until the Philistines were subdued, that Israel began using these weapons. Who was the underdog: David with God on his side, Goliath with Dagon!

Title: Re: David and Goliath - Airing on the BBC Sunday
Post by Hobb on Mar 8th, 2004 at 12:59pm
Interesting point.  I didn't mean to imply that the Philistines really were big & stupid, I was just wondering how David could be the underdog if he was fighting with the superior weapon.  'David and Goliath' has come to mean unexpected victory over seemingly impossible odds, but... a ranged weapon versus hand-to-hand weapons?  How could David lose?  I keep thinking of Indiana Jones, in the first movie, where he shoots the guy with the sword.

Title: Re: David and Goliath - Airing on the BBC Sunday
Post by TechStuf on Mar 8th, 2004 at 1:17pm
Excellent point there, Hobb.   "Don't bring a knife to a gun fight"!    There is an old saying that goes something like this...."The wise man carefully considers each step, while the fool plods ahead and is punished".    Goliath and the Philistines possessed great over-confidence....and were punished.   David did just so and was rewarded for his obedience and tenacious grasp of Godly wisdom.    Here is an excellent resource for those who seriously ponder the veracity of certain historical claims contained in the Holy Scriptures:

http://www.wyattmuseum.com/red-sea-crossing.htm

The man,  Ron Wyatt,  was the inspiration for the 'Indiana Jones'  character in the Steven Spielberg movies.    Truth can certainly be stranger than fiction....

Title: Re: David and Goliath - Airing on the BBC Sunday
Post by Chris on Mar 8th, 2004 at 2:40pm
Yes, lets keep the religious debate elsewhere and just respect that other people have different opinions.  

I was also pretty pleased with the documentary.  It was well produced.  The slinger had a funky style though (whole arm, underarm rotation).  He only could get up to speeds of 80 mph, which is quite low.  I imagine Larry or Jurek must be exceeding 200 mph.  

Chris

Title: Re: David and Goliath - Airing on the BBC Sunday
Post by Chris on Mar 8th, 2004 at 2:42pm
Welcome edsomenz,

It was the Discovery Channel's "Ancient Expeditions" and the BBC "Bible Miniseries".

I have not heard of Dr. Grosscup.  Who is he?  A professor?  

Perhaps we can help you with your question.
Chris

Title: Re: David and Goliath - Airing on the BBC Sunday
Post by Johnny on Mar 8th, 2004 at 2:48pm
Chris
How can I get a copy of this program? Will BBC put it on a DVD or something?
Thanks

Title: Re: David and Goliath - Airing on the BBC Sunday
Post by Chris on Mar 8th, 2004 at 3:21pm
Yea, you can, in either DVD or VHS.  Pretty pricey though.

http://shopping.discovery.com/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10000&storeId=10000&langId=-1&productId=54863&partnumber=698209&gs=1

http://shopping.discovery.com/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10000&storeId=10000&langId=-1&productId=54862&partnumber=698191&gs=1

Chris

Title: Re: David and Goliath - Airing on the BBC Sunday
Post by english on Mar 8th, 2004 at 3:37pm
Ok, Johnny, I have in fact read the Bible.  And the Koran.  And the Dao De Jing.  I am very interested in other religions.  I just think they are false.   And my gran is Irish, Roman Catholic.  My mum and dad used to sorta make me go to church, so i have some idea of religious stuff.  Also, I have a GCSE A* in religious studies.  So trust me, I can speak with conviction.  Hope I don't offend any sensibilities, I just state what I believe. :-[
Anyways, like I said, it was a good program, and I knew the sling was powerful, but as powerful as a bullet?!  Amazing.  And if world class record breaking slingers like Larry or Yurek can do better, then I would love to see the power then.  I'd guess it'd have the same power as a .45, not just a puny .22. :)  
I think I will leave the whole religion thing alone now.  

Title: Re: David and Goliath - Airing on the BBC Sunday
Post by Johnny on Mar 8th, 2004 at 4:07pm
If you're Irish Roman Catholic, why do you call yourself "English"? I know you live in England so I guess that's why(I'm not asking this in a sarcastic way). I to have studied the Eastern religions through my many years(23) of Karate training(Wado-Ryu). But found no answers to life in them. No way have you offended me! I get into "religious" debates all the time. Mostly with my best friends and family members! I always go into a discussion as a friend and leave as a friend!
No hard feelings!
Johnny

Chris, I will shut up now!

Title: Re: David and Goliath - Airing on the BBC Sunday
Post by TechStuf on Mar 8th, 2004 at 5:02pm
I know where you're coming from Johnny.   I have a bit of a background with a variety of martial arts and have studied their philisophical approach to understanding life's lessons.   I was also trained as a special weapons specialist by the U.S. Air Force and came to learn about the ties that bind ALL who practice the way of the warrior.  In that time I have learned....at some cost.....that no man is truly an island unto himself and that the concept of complete individual autonomy is self delusional.   In my personal opinion,  a most pivotal discovery that one can make is the daunting realization that we as individual humans are, ourselves, largely tools in the hands of much greater warriors than ourselves.......Just who we choose to serve (either subconsciously or consciously) is at least as important as the stability of the axis upon which our world turns.   The samurai of old had an integral maxim....."no way is way".     The same is true with many aspects of life......"no choice is choice".    This forum, for example is a highly interesting microcosm from which much can be learned about the amazing variety of threads that bind us all.      

Title: Re: David and Goliath - Airing on the BBC Sunday
Post by Hobb on Mar 8th, 2004 at 6:38pm
Hmmm....  The threads that bind us all... #18 mason's twine? ;)

Title: Re: David and Goliath - Airing on the BBC Sunday
Post by Johnny on Mar 8th, 2004 at 6:42pm
Tech, once again, you're right on the mark!
I like the oxymoronic statement: "I am absolute there are no absolutes".

Title: Re: David and Goliath - Airing on the BBC Sunday
Post by TechStuf on Mar 8th, 2004 at 7:18pm
Johnny,  regarding your previous statement:   I am certain that you are certain of it's certainty!    (lol)  ;) :)  

Title: Re: David and Goliath - Airing on the BBC Sunday
Post by TechStuf on Mar 8th, 2004 at 7:22pm
Hobb......I guess Nano-refined spider silk from genetically modified goat's milk may be a bit much?!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/889951.stm

Title: Re: David and Goliath - Airing on the BBC Sunday
Post by english on Mar 9th, 2004 at 1:22pm
My dad's family is from Yorkshire and Lancashire, about as English as they come.  My grandad on my mum's side is English.  Only my granma on my mum's side is Irish, but both my parents are roman Catholic.  I have been confirmed, but I just saw that it is, in fact, not true.  Anyways, I also don't believe there is a lot to eastern "religions" (I don't think taoism is a religion, as such, Lao Tzu wrote the Dao De Jing just before leaving for the wilderness, just to tell people how a man should live, ie, in accordance with nature, and did not intend to set up a religion), but they do contain lots of wise statements.  My particular favourite of the moment is "it is the intangible that makes the tangible worthwhile", not funny like yours, but truthful.  It is the knowledge of how to use a sling that makes having a sling worthwhile for instance (a bit simplistic, but it does work).
  Anyways, I have turned to philosophy, rather than religion, to find out the things most people need faith for.  Anyways, enough about this.  I was thinking about the program, and the slinger on it was shown doing an underarm slinging style, with multiple turns.  Would David have used such a technique?  I find it quite innacurate, (although that is probably just me), and I get a lot of power from a single overarm throw.  Just wondering.

Title: Re: David and Goliath - Airing on the BBC Sunday
Post by Johnny on Mar 9th, 2004 at 3:43pm
I have a Yorkshire connection, mainly through my wife's family. Her maiden name was "EIdson" and we have traced it to the Viking settlers in Yorkshire. That name is also found in Norway. From what I understand, the people of Yorkshire can link their DNA to Norway and Sweden! I think I read about this on the BBC or something awhile back. I'm French Huguenot and English, with Scotch-Irish and Welsh thrown in. I also had a full blooded Pawnee indian ancestor. Well, enough about me.
Johnny

Title: Re: David and Goliath - Airing on the BBC Sunday
Post by TechStuf on Mar 9th, 2004 at 7:27pm
Anglo mutt here too.....German, Welsh, British....My great grandmother on my mother's side was full blooded Cherokee.  My Great grandmother on my father's side was full blooded Sioux. I have traced my lineage as far as I can out of curiosity.  I know our family started a pub in england that is known as Robinson's Pub.  And a great little enterprise it is!  It is rumored that we go back to the tribes of Judah (centered in modern day Britain) Benjamin and Dan (Which became Dan's Mark or modern day Denmark).   Many people don't know that the word 'British' itself is taken from two hebrew words:  'Brit' meaning covenant, 'ish' meaning man, = "Covenant Man".  Most people do not know what the word 'Caucasian' even means!   It refers to those who come from the 'Caucusus'  mountains  in lower Russia.  Interesting that the Caucusus mountains were the last known place of captivity for 10 tribes of Israel.  They then went on to scatter to the four winds and settle all over the world and number as the sands of the sea as promised our Forefather,  Abraham.   It is interesting that with some digging,  one can identify the major players on the world stage with their biblical forbearers.   It is accepted by many who have studied cultural migrations in human history that those who make up most of modern day Russia...(or the 'Reds' as they were 'affectionately' known by the west up through the cold war years) are the descendants of Edom (whose name means simply RED).  Edom, of course, was once named  'Esau',  who traded his inheritance for a bowl of red pottage.   Here is an interesting source for anyone interested in this topic:

http://www.anycities.com/jahtruth/britspan.htm

I will stop here as there is voluminous information to be covered in this topic.....and for a different forum.

Title: Re: David and Goliath - Airing on the BBC Sunday
Post by Chris on Mar 9th, 2004 at 8:01pm
Since were talking about anglo backgrounds, I thought I'd mention I was actually born in England (London to be exact).  I moved to the US when I was young.

Chris

Title: Re: David and Goliath - Airing on the BBC Sunday
Post by TechStuf on Mar 9th, 2004 at 10:36pm
Shoulda known we have a blueblood as our gracious host.   Crikey!  lol  ;) ;) ;)

Title: Re: David and Goliath - Airing on the BBC Sunday
Post by Johnny on Mar 9th, 2004 at 11:59pm
Tech
The Edomites were destroyed by the Romans  after the destruction of Jerusalem. The Russians, as well as the Europeans, are descended from Japheth, not Shem. The book of Obadiah speaks of their destuction(the Edomites). 2 Kings 17 says that the northern tribes stayed in Assyria and ventured no further. I've heard of "British Israel"(isn't this Armstrong's doctrine?) but I don't think it is correct. I have a friend that lives in Athens, Tennessee. I don't think Greeks sailed over in the 5th century BC and colonized it! Nor do I think Denmark was colonized by the tribe of Dan. Anyway, that's my view! Always enjoy a good discussion(even if we disagree!!)!!!   Johnny

Title: Re: David and Goliath - Airing on the BBC Sunday
Post by TechStuf on Mar 10th, 2004 at 12:49am
Your point is valid considering my very short synopsis of the topic.   A cursory google search may prove enlightening..... or not,  depending upon what you are truly looking for regarding the subject.   ;)

Title: Re: David and Goliath - Airing on the BBC Sunday
Post by Johnny on Mar 10th, 2004 at 12:59am
Tech
I'll look into the website(s) and try to get a more broad view on this topic. I'll check them out. Thanks
Johnny

Title: Re: David and Goliath - Airing on the BBC Sunday
Post by english on Mar 10th, 2004 at 3:28pm
Well I am fairly certain that I am mostly AngloSaxon blood, with the late addition of Irish and probably much earlier, Viking.  I have a weird mix of colours in my hair, mostly blonde, but also red, and light brown.  My facial hair is mostly blonde, but everyone says there is red in there, which is a bit annoying.  
I am fairly certain that Denmark was colonized by the Jutes, hence, Jutland, the mainland part of Denmark.  British, I read somewhere, is derived from a Greek word, not sure of the meaning, but it is certainly of Greek provenance, passed through Latin.  The Latin word for Britain was, of course, Britannia, hence, Mare Britannicus, the English Channel.  
And Caucasian means someone who is not negroid, mongoloid, etc.  The Indo-European tribes, who make up the vast majority of people in Europe and Western Asia, come from the Caucasus mountains, and they spread across the land innumerable years ago, certainly before any Israelites would have come along, or anyone else from that region.  Most European and Indian languages are, naturally, Indo-European, apart from, in Europe, Finnish, Hungarian, and Maltese, which are, respectively, Ural-Altaic (both Finnish and Hungarian) and Semitic, and in India, the Dravidian language family, whose members include the language of Kannada.  The Indo-europeans were what we would deem mostly caucasian today, and so that is why most white or west Asian peoples are called Caucasians.  

Quote:
.....German, Welsh, British....
 when you say Welsh and British, do you mean Welsh and English?  Most Americans class English people (erroneously) as just simply British, when in fact the term can include anyone who is a citizen of part of the UK.

Title: Re: David and Goliath - Airing on the BBC Sunday
Post by TechStuf on Mar 10th, 2004 at 4:28pm
Well now, there is certainly no shortage of your elder countrymen that would argue your borrowed semantics.  Or your use of the term: 'erroneously' for that matter.  It depends on your 'Angle' of thinking.  One man's history is another man's revisionism.  You may quite appropriately designate me 'Old School' regarding this subject.   But of course, this is a topic which can be debated ad nauseum in more appropriate venues.......I will say this -  there certainly are those who, for which, knowledge of their true origins should remain a mystery.

Title: Re: David and Goliath - Airing on the BBC Sunday
Post by Johnny on Mar 10th, 2004 at 4:36pm
I saw a book last night by Osprey Publications titled,"Troy". It had a photo of a pile of slingstones used during the "Trojan War". Good size stones! Also included some arrowheads. I think Homer mentioned a sling once or twice in the Iliad.

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