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Message started by Hondero on Jan 21st, 2004 at 2:30pm

Title: Cestrosphendone
Post by Hondero on Jan 21st, 2004 at 2:30pm
Well, the time has arrived to talk about cestrosfendon (or cestrophendone in latin). The text of Livius mentioned by Matolay, relative to war betwen Macedonians and Romans, says thus:

“They suffered (the Romans) mainly from the cestrosphendones, a novel kind of weapon invented during the war. It consisted of a pointed iron head of two palms long, fastened to a shaft made of pinewood, nine inches long and as thick as a man´s finger. Round the shaft three feathers were fastened as in the case of arrows, and the sling was held by two thongs, one shorter than the other. When the missile was poised in the center of the sling, the slinger whirled it round with great force and it flew out like a leaden bullet. Many of the soldiers were wounded by theese and by missiles of all kinds. “


The weapon then had an iron point of two palms (15 cm) and a shaft of nine inches of the thickness of a finger. In the middle of the shaft there was three fins. The translation to english that I have got says that of the two thongs of different length; nevertheless the latin text of Livius says that in the middle of the sling there were two different “scutalia”. Again the famous word “scutalia” and the confusion that implies, because the translator interprets it like strap of the sling, whereas Livius literally says that in the middle of the sling were the two scutalia,  what suggest there were two different pouch to hold the dart between both. This interpretation is coherent with the one of the achaean sling, that would be formed by a triple pouch or pouch of three sewn pieces, like the text of Livius sugest speaking of "triplex scutalia". Well, semantics investigations aside, there we have the cestrosphendon that would be a dart of about 35,5 cm in length with three fins in the middle of its shaft. The dart would be holded between two small pouches of different form and whirled around in the the habitual way. One of the pouches would be a small leather circle to support the point and the other a loop to introduce the end of the shaft, over the fins. The dart would be held between the pouches not horizontal but with an angle and the thongs would be of differente lenght. I am going to try finding an image of the weapon, as it has passed some years since I was on it.
It is remarkable that the dart would have a weight ten times superior, at least, to a conventional arrow, possibly around 200 grams, and therefore its power of impact, together with its penetration, was terrible. Such a weight only could be thrown to great distance with a sling.

Hondero, and years ago cestrosphendoner ;)

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Whipartist on Jan 21st, 2004 at 3:24pm
Hondero,

Thanks that's very interesting.  I'm sure the power of such a weapon was incredible!  I'm looking foward to the picture if you can find one.  I think I'm understanding how it would work, but a picture would help to clarify, even if just a drawing.  Awesome.  Thanks!

                                 Ben

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Yurek on Jan 21st, 2004 at 4:10pm
Yes, Hondero, we ask you for a sketch. This is very interesting.

Jurek

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Matolay on Jan 22nd, 2004 at 8:15pm
Hondero,
Thanks for the fine explanation. Well, if the dart is held in loaded position before turn, would it be pointing its arrow downwards so that the heavy part is at the end of the turning radius?

In that case, would it be released with tail first? Because a normal small dart you can throw pointing at its target, but also by holding it in its tail pointing the opposite direction because it will turn itself during flight and hit the target arrow first anyway. I guess it’s the same with the cestrosphendon. I sure would like to see a drawing or something.  8)

What would be the average range of the described size dart?  ::)

Later, in the same Macedon war the Romans had to give up the siege of a town who's defenders used 'engines' throwing stones so precisely they could not get near the walls and a soldier standing on deck of a roman ship watching the siege from some distance was 'shot' dead by one. It seems these Macedon’s had great inventors them days.  :D  

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Hondero on Jan 23rd, 2004 at 6:09am
Some drawings will save a pile of words.







The cestros sling:



The weapon works very well but it requires enough training until finding the launching suitable technique. If someone is encouraged to construct and to experiment with it, we will speak of the secrets of its use. The weapon is very powerful and according to the Greek text of Polibius in which Livius was inspired to describe it, the point was formed of two equal parts: one the point itself, that would be of massive iron and another one in tube form to fit the shaft. This imply a weight of around 150 grams or greater, similar to the one of a stone projectile of a military sling, that could be sent to great distance, around the 200 meters as Vegetius indicates speaking of the training of the Roman slingers. I can imagine the destructive effect of the dart penetrating even the armors and destroying members and enemy heads...  :o


Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Yurek on Jan 23rd, 2004 at 11:31am
Hondero,

Thanks for the good pictures. They tell me all about how that device working. Great!

Jurek

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by mgreenfield on Jan 23rd, 2004 at 3:30pm
....wow!   Looks like a nasty weapon to face on a battlefield!     x3 questions:

1/ How does the sharp iron dart point slip smoothly out of the small soft leather sling pocket?  Maybe it doesnt have to because the dart flips end-over-end on launch.

2/ Why is the dart shaft extended so far aft beyond the fins?  It seems like just enough shaft to be held in the small sling loop would be better, and give smoother launches.

3/ On spin-up, wouldnt the fins try to orient the dart point first in the sling?  

Thanx!     ....wonder how far Jurek could chuck one of these 200g darts?

mgreenfield

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Yurek on Jan 23rd, 2004 at 5:21pm
mgreenfield,

I'm afraid I could't send the dart very far I have no practice with it. It seems to be not easy in using, more difficult than the sling, I suppose.

Jurek

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Hondero on Jan 24th, 2004 at 2:01pm
Mgreenfield, very good questions. The small pocket is leather, but I didn´t say it was soft leather as in a conventional sling, but at the contrary it must be hard leather and using the tanned surface to hold up the point. If not, the point will be trapped in it when throwing and the dart would fly in an erratic way, as you have imagined. The litle pocket must be dished too, as it is evident.  Nevetherless, this is the main problem with cestrosphendon, and to avoid the possible driftage they used (in my guess) the long  shaft that exceded the loop: it direct the dart correcting the deviations in the throw. But after  having experienced a lot, I eventually have adopted a shorter dart with the fins almost at the end, as you say, and to avoid the driftage I use a litle piece of dished metal stuck in the pocket ( exactly a litle original Roman coin  :)).
In any case, is basic the lenth of the dart between the pocket and the loop to be as shorter as posible to avoid the entangling of the cords in the turning around.

This morning, encouraged by the chat, I´ve found my last cestros, forgotten from two years in the box of funny weapons. I went to a near field and have thrown it several times enjoying it very much. Eventually, in a longer throw, I´ve lost it. It´s the destiny of all cestros  :-/.

Hondero

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by mgreenfield on Jan 25th, 2004 at 12:30am
Hondero, ....thanks the note re my x3 questions.   It the thing lots harder to manage than a usual sling, ...like Jurek thinks it might be??   The Cestrophendon is attractive because it provides a fool-proof solution to the problem of keeping the projectile headed point first as it flys.     mgreenfield

Title: Re: Kestros
Post by Dan_Bollinger on Jan 31st, 2004 at 10:46am
What a coincidence!  I haven't worked on my slinging research for two years, began thinking about it last night, and this morning found this forum almost by accident only to find a new thread on my favorite topic, the Kestros (I prefer this shorter name).

I worked up a number of bolt shapes (including one that looks much like the sketch above) based on the Livius and a few others descriptions, too. My sling interpretation is different, though. I have successfully tossed a Kestros with impunity, but need to braid a longer sling and wait for the snow to melt before trying it out (I wouldn't want to lose it in the snow).

I have the advantage that a buddy of mine Prof. Vern Foley is a History of Technology professor at Purdue. Vern helped me with the history and translations. He's an expert in ancient weaponry and has 5 articles in Scientific American. I've also talked with the Royal Armourie in England. They are familiar with the Kestros mystery, too. http://www.armouries.org.uk/

My feeling is that any interpretation isn't authentic unless 1. you find an ancient artifact to verify it (unlikely). Or, 2, your intrerpretation performs as well as the original. So, until I can toss one fast and long I won't know if my interpretation is correct or not. I'll post more when I learn more, probably around March when the local soccer field is greening.  Dan

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by mgreenfield on Jan 31st, 2004 at 11:01am
Dan ....dead nuts right on re your items 1 & 2 in last paragraph.     Same w regular sling & I look fwd to your March postings!   Greening in March??   Must be nice.   Closer to end-May here.          mgreenfield

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Hondero on Jan 31st, 2004 at 2:35pm
My friend Dan, is pleasant to find you here. You will remember me from the Slinging forum in Yahoo groups, that has come down little by little. I am Jesús Vega and in that forum I used the nick of Hondahondero or Tribal. I remember the other colleagues of the forum in epoca 2001-2002 in which I was there, like Thom Richardson, Nikolas Lloyd, Ed Somervail, etc. It was other time and the forums disappear but the slingers follow on. Sometimes I have thought to write to the dying forum so that people went to this one, that being younger it is in the heat of euphoria, but it seems to me  incorrect thinking in Ed Somervail, the owner of the forum. It´s a pleasure you´ve arrived here and to count with your valuable contribution in the subjet of the sling. I remember that lately there we were speaking about the Cestrosphendon or cestros, or Kestros in its Greek root. I warn you that I am an expert cestrosphendoner, so don´t  put me in doubt which I say, ha ha ha.

Saludos and welcome

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Dan Bollinger on Jan 31st, 2004 at 3:51pm
Hello, Hondero!  I wondered if that wasn't you when I read your posts. Yes, the old forum is slow lately. This one is very active and has so many people! This is wonderful news for the advancement of this sport and hobby.  

You mentioned Thom Richardson. He was my contact at the Royal Armouries as no doubt you will recall. Thom has an interest in the Kestros mystery.

I remember that you were also working on a Kestros and had developed a working model. I'm glad you have continued to develop proficiency with it. I look forward to comparisons when I finish my testing this spring. yours, Dan

Title: Re: Kestros
Post by Hondero on Feb 1st, 2004 at 8:46am

wrote on Jan 31st, 2004 at 10:46am:
I have the advantage that a buddy of mine Prof. Vern Foley is a History of Technology professor at Purdue. Vern helped me with the history and translations.


It looks very interesting, that help. I always have missed in any translation that joint between Latin and weapons knowledge. I´d like to know his interpretation of Livius text and that of Polibius, the only ones I think does exist about cestros.
Well, I read somewere that the cestros is depicted in some odd Greek vases, but till now I´ve found nothing in differents online collections, such as Perseus. May be someone is encouraged to find it.

Hondero

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Johnny on Feb 2nd, 2004 at 4:46pm
Where can I read about this battle(between Rome and Macedonia)? Livy? Polybius?
Thanks again
Johnny

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Hondero on Feb 2nd, 2004 at 5:44pm
Livius mainly, but both in connection with cestrosphendon.
Hondero

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Dan_Bollinger on Feb 2nd, 2004 at 8:33pm
Hondero,  Vern is an interesting fellow. He is Scientific American's most published author. Not bad for a publication that is over 100 years old. I'll have to dig out my notes on his translations. He says his Greek is poor, but its a lot better than mine, which is nil. He knows a lot about trebuchets and atlatls.

Of course, as you have probably found out, the units of measurement, not the translation, is the tricky thing. One 'palm' can be any number of lengths depending on where and when the author speaks. Anywhere from about 6cm to 20cm. Standardized units of measurement didn't come for many centuries later. Most of my research has been in finding the proper units to apply.

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Hondero on Feb 3rd, 2004 at 4:30am
I´ve left here an instant message for you about Vern :)
In conection with traslations I agree with you about measures, but in this case seems clear that "palm" is the mesure of the palm wide and so it can be about 8 cm. More problems there are in the description of the sling, in the pouch and straps.

Hondero

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by magnumslinger on Feb 5th, 2004 at 1:34pm
This weapon is a very logical and fascinating variation of the conventional sling!  I'm learning so much here on the slingers' forum!  I have seen flip catapults, and fancier hand catapults designed or modifyable for shooting arrows, and this makes sense to me, somehow.

I even used to improvise spearguns when I was young using snorkel tubes, surgical tubes or heavy rubber bands and other similar odds and ends.  They worked like hand catapults, and the "spears" were often modified arrows fitted with broadheads.  They flew pretty well in the air as well as underwater!

So, it makes sense to me that back then some slinger decided to try to launch some sort of arrow/dart/javelin thing using a similar technique as he did to launch glandes or stones.  I've heard some rumours and claims that arrows can be slung, and even seen or read convincing evidence and arguments that cord-guided or "atlatyl-style" cord-launched javelins were used in ancient times (much of it from reading here!).  But this is the first I've seen of an actual successful attempt to reconstruct this type of weapon!  That's exciting!  I'd really like to try one of these dart launchers out someday!

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Johnny on Feb 5th, 2004 at 1:53pm
Has anyone made a cestrosphendon? If so, get some photos of it on this site! I would like to make one myself!

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Dan_Bollinger on Feb 5th, 2004 at 3:19pm
LOL!  Well, Hondero posted the best known instructions on the first post of this thread. He and I have built some based on this and I know Thom Richardson is interested in anyone's attempts. Two archeaological brothers made one in the late 1800's, but theirs was considered illconsidered.

Hondero's bolt is identical to one of my interpretations, but I don't know if the lengths are the same, I suspect so. We came up with different slings.

Both Hondero and I have come back to this subject after setting it aside for about the same length of time, two years. I guess it is time for me to finish this project and document it. Let's hope for an early spring. Dan

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Hondero on Feb 5th, 2004 at 6:11pm
Well, I see the interest in cestros is increasing again :) Johnny, I think that with the information in this thread you can make the weapon, at least some that can work more or less. Later will come the improving of it. I said that some days ago I was throwing the cestros for a while till I lost it. It was the last cestros I´ve kept from the time I experimented intensely with the weapon. Soon I´m making a new one and post some photos of it. Sorry Dan, but here is almost spring and the days are so beautiful as to spend a sunny morning recovering the skill with the cestros. Is wonderful to see how it flies ;).

Hondero

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Johnny on Feb 5th, 2004 at 9:03pm
Hondero
How did you make the dart?
Are you from the Balearics?
Thanks!

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by brug on Feb 10th, 2004 at 4:28am
Hi Hondero

Please tell me which kind of arrows do you use and how long is the arrow.

Thank you Brugger

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Hondero on Apr 12th, 2004 at 12:45pm
This thread was forgotten and without finishing, and also I remember I´ve promised some pictures about, so I return to it after having been practicing something with the cestro these holidays. I have reproduced faithfully the design of the dart according to the clasic authors, but I´ve found it a little heavy and it does not work very well, requiring much ability to send it and that it flies right. I have made some modern darts, lighter and more stable in flight, and then everything works perfectly. I have used the type of sling that I described previously in the thread and that I suppose is the most likely interpretation of clasic texts. The images clarifies the subject by themselves.




The dart of the image, even been modern, approach the classic design as far as the relative dimensions, the positioning of the fins in half of the shaft, etc. Nevertheless, the dart is shorter, about a foot, and the weight is about 200 grs.The iron is a tube to insert the shaft, and one end is squashed and sharpened to make the point. Also it has been partially filled up with melted lead to give the suitable weight that would have a massive iron point. The fins are the conventional ones of the arrows. The image of the dart is from some months ago and is the only image I keep up, although the last darts I´ve made and experiment with are lighter, of about 100 grs, with the iron point shortened to the half and the fins placed more towards the end to give more stability to the flight. With this last design the flight is very straight and the range is surprising, as much as to lose all darts I´ve made  :-/.

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Johnny on Apr 12th, 2004 at 12:58pm
Hondero
That is awesome!
My Cestros and dart looks very similar. How far can you cast the dart? 50 yards? 100 yards?
Great work!
Johnny

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Hondero on Apr 12th, 2004 at 1:26pm
So you have made a cestros! Congratulations!  
I think the range I get with the modern design is similar to throwing a stone, maybe a little less.
Have you found any difficulties throwing the dart?

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Johnny on Apr 12th, 2004 at 1:54pm
The dart I made was different than yours.
I shaped a piece of cedar into a shaft with a bulbous head. Then filled it with lead, no sharp point( I did not want to kill myself during experimental hurls!). I could only hurl the dart about 25 yards. I'm sure it was my clumsy design! The sling looks very much like yours. Does your dart snag or stick to the pocket when you release the cord?
Johnny

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by english on Apr 12th, 2004 at 3:55pm
Now that I see those pictures, I feel I must make one.  I have plenty of skill in making quarrels and arrows, and other things besides.  I think the sling will be the easy part, but I think that instead of a hardened piece of leather I shall employ a small round, possibly faintly grooved piece of wood.  I think it should be easy to braid and fitting the wood should not be difficult.  Thanks Hondero.  That looks great, and I can imagine how it flies.

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Hondero on Apr 12th, 2004 at 5:32pm
Johnny,
the main problem is really how to avoid that the point stick into the pouch. Of course if the point is blunt the problem is less, but the weapon then is not actually lethal  ;D. I´ve used different solutions, one of them been to put a small piece of leather betwen the sharpen point and the pouch, that come off immediately after the throwing.

English,
good idea to make a wooden small pouch for the point, I´ve never tried it. I think a hard wood willl be better. I´ve used sometimes a little coin stuck on the pouch and it works very well.

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Dan_Bollinger on May 1st, 2004 at 9:18am
I must get my Kestros photos up. But first, I need to toss a few to report on how well (or not) my reconstructions work.  

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Hondero on May 1st, 2004 at 9:50am
Hi Dan, nice to hear you again, I´m looking forward to see your photos and experiences.

Hondero

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Mithras on May 1st, 2004 at 3:23pm
I AM MAKING ME ONE OF THESE!

Nice reconstruction work there, and a solid model upon which to base some working reconstructions on. I need to find the original sources, too.

I have some arrow parts spare, the sling will be no problem .... I may replace the arrowhead with a blunt weight, though.

Happy days ahead :)

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Mithras on May 3rd, 2004 at 4:24am
I made one! Well, I made a dart and a prototype string sling. Just been to test my release on the field nearby, and I figure a single swing around the side of the body will be best or else the cords get tangled and the beast just tumbles messily in the air.

I'll make a leather sling today and try some full power launches.

If it all displays properly there should be pictures at the bottom of my slinging page: http://www.geocities.com/zozergames/sling.html

You may see a strange resemblance to Hondero's dart ... thanks Hondero!

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Mithras on May 3rd, 2004 at 11:31am
I've made a leather sling and had some tests, my best range today was 45m, but I have no idea how accurate the dart is, since I was flinging it into a wide open field.

Many thanks to everyone on this thread for getting me in gear to create yet another ancient weapon.

Brilliant!

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by should be slinger on May 5th, 2004 at 1:41am
Cestrosphendons look cool!
I want to make one, wonder how accurate they are...

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Mithras on Jun 2nd, 2004 at 2:09pm
Important announcement!! I have just gotten off my arse and attached my kestrosphendone sling to a short (1m) bamboo cane. I've made a staff kestros... A few gentle casts in my 20m garden (akin to fly fishing with a well sprung rod!!) and boy it flies!

I'm off to the field tommorrow (forget about the rain that's forecast) and I'm looking to smash my 45m hand sling attempts. I'll keep you posted.

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Hondero on Jun 2nd, 2004 at 2:42pm
Interesting the staff kestrosphendon!! I´m sure it´ll work though Greeks diden´t use it. In the articles section Paul Elliot says he is trying the kestros and is going to made a staff-kestros too. Luck!!

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by VortigernStudies on Jun 4th, 2004 at 6:51pm
Hi everyone!
Just joined the forum, and all because of the Cestrosphendon. My game is Late Roman re-eanactments, and this Cestrosphendon dart is looking awfully like a plumbata.

Plumbatae were Late Roman throwing darts, weighted by a ball of lead, but still very similar to the Cestrosphendon, but hand-thrown. The range is usually between 25 and 40 metres. They are thrown underarm and land in a high arc and with high penetrating power.

Now, the interesting thing is that the range is said by Vegetius to have been much longer, which makes me think of the Cestrosphendon again. the 7th-c. Byzantine military manual called the Strategikon also mentions plumbatae, but always straight after the slingers.

And lo and behold, there once was a folk sport called 'arrow-throwing' in Yorkshire, England (West Riding to be precise), where they used slings to throw darts. These darts were wooden rods, the technique was overarm and the record distance was 372 yards.

I will definately try and use the Cestrosphendon with my plumbatae!

Cheers,
Robert
Vortigern Studies

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Johnny on Jun 4th, 2004 at 9:15pm
Robert
Glad you're here with us!
I've read several of your threads on RAT. You also have a great website!
The arrow throwing sport was very interesting. Where can I read more about this?
How much were the slingers used in 7th century Byzantium?
Thanks for your efforts!
Johnny

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Yurek on Jun 5th, 2004 at 7:30am
I have no experiences with cestrosphendons, but would like to put in some idea, which I have just got. That one is very simple and would work quite well after some tuning. I think a position of the center gravity of the arrow and lenght of the cords are important here.

Here is the picture. This is a quite simple design.



I have no arrows to test it. Maybe it is worth of testing. If someone of you try it and give an opinion, I will be gratefull.

Jurek

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Mithras on Jun 5th, 2004 at 10:37am
Jurek, that is an interesting design. I've been wracking my brains trying to think of a 'simple' sling solution, but failed. Not sure about the arrow-head/sling connection. The shape of the arrowhead will make or break the design. Too rounded and the centrifugal pressure on the sling attachment there will slide it over the head. Too sharply tanged and the cord will tangle in the arrow head as it feeds over the shaft upon release.

I'll try a string mock up in my garden later.

BTW: bamboo staff sling - does not work! I got the same range (45m) as with the hand sling. I think its due to the springiness of the staff, it soaked up all the power and didn't transfer any to the dart.

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Mithras on Jun 5th, 2004 at 11:27am
Ha, just tried Jureks sling design, it seems to work fine! The method of seating the arrow is far more reliable that Hondero's pouch system (sorry Hondero! but I had some great casts with that design!).

I'm simply using a string sling, I can get away with that since my dart is only 50g in weight. I may try to add some weight with a new dart at some point in the future.

Another new toy to play with!

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Yurek on Jun 5th, 2004 at 4:45pm
Mithras,

Thanks for testings. I'm glad it working for you. I'm curious of feeling during throwing arrows. I must try it bodily. I'm going to make a simple arrow (or something like Robert's plumbata) and will see. You  have stimulated me.

Jurek

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Mithras on Jun 5th, 2004 at 5:54pm
Let me tell you that with Hondero's design, I had the arrowhead lower than the tail. With your design it is imperative to have the arrowhead higher than the tail (to keep the dart in the sling).

This is what I find, anyway.

My tests were only at short range (15m) and low speed, however. Perhaps better tests tomorrow!!!

Title: Re: Kestros
Post by Mithras on Jun 5th, 2004 at 6:03pm

wrote on Jan 31st, 2004 at 10:46am:
I worked up a number of bolt shapes (including one that looks much like the sketch above) based on the Livius and a few others descriptions, too. My sling interpretation is different, though.


Hi Dan,

Please could you tell us more about your different sling and bolt designs?

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Johnny on Jun 5th, 2004 at 7:52pm
Yurek
Your design works!
I have a very rough, clumsy built dart, and I was able to hurl it with your sling design. I think if I had a proper dart, it work go much futher. It seems to look more like the one Livy described in his histories(the sling that is). Very simple!
Thanks for your efforts!
Johnny

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Chris on Jun 5th, 2004 at 10:57pm
Welcome Robert,

Yes, it does seem logical that a dart would be the evolution of sling payloads.  This fact has even dawned on us modern slingers, with Larry Bray's Guinness World Record having been achieved with a dart.  

Chris

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Hondero on Jun 6th, 2004 at 2:35am
Robert,
First, welcome to the forum. The plumbata is a different thing from cestrosphendon. It is longer than the dart of the cestros and as you explain it is weighted with a lead ball in the center of the shaft,  and it´s sent by hand. I have made and used the plumbata and it has nothing to do with the cestros. The cestros can almost reach the same distance that a stone of the same weight sent with a conventional sling, that is, hundreds of meters. The energy that takes the dart can penetrate armors and kill a man or blow away an arm. The Romans didnd´t use the cestros, maybe because of its difficult operation. They were very practical people.
In regard to the folk sport called 'arrow-throwing' in Yorkshire, England, the arrow is a simple shaft and the cord is a simple string with a knot at the end. A loop is made over the shaft by that end, being joined on the knot, on which it slid at the end of the launching freeing itself (don´t know if it is well said  ???). It is a very simple design and works very well. It can be used with conventional bow arrows too.

Yurek,
the inventors nook was forgotten and I am glad that you bring here your ingenious designs again :D. I have to try it, but at first I see a difficulty in the position of the arrow. Being horizontal and the cords very opened, when turning around they are going to tangle. That also happens with the conventional design of cestrosphendon when the dart is placed in a quite horizontal position. In fact, and to avoid it, the best position is very inclined, almost vertical, with a limit of 30 degrees on the vertical.

Mithras,
I see that you have had some difficulties with the conventional cestro  ;D. Well, I´ll tell you the secret of its operation. As I said before, its position must be enough vertical so that the cords are not tangled, and the most important is to avoid that the point nail on the little pocket. Put simply a small piece of leather between the point ant the pocket and the dart will leave straight ahead without being stuck in the pocket. There are other solutions, but I prefer you guys to experiment until finding them, and thus can appear new designs and solutions, as the ingenious design of Yurek. The innovation to the power!

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Yurek on Jun 6th, 2004 at 3:41pm
Mithras,


Quote:
... With your design it is imperative to have the arrowhead higher than the tail (to keep the dart in the sling)...


I imagined that the arrow head shouldn't keep the dart in the sling. If the arrow isn't too long relative to the cords, the friction between the shaft and the cords will keep the shaft enough well, similar like the cradle keeps stones in a sling. It depend on the angle between the shaft and cords.

Johnny,

Thanks for your opinion. Could you write in a few short words how Livius described the cestros?

Hondero,

The cords twisting during windups may be a problem, indeed, because of the arrow most probably will be circling "point-first". Way to avoid it may be a reduced, constant amount of the windups and starting with the initially twisted cords (mgreenfield's idea) in the oposite direction. Just my guess.

Well... it's a pitty that the Inventors Nook is forgotten. I'm sure here are guys, who could put in over there some interesting ideas.

Jurek

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by VortigernStudies on Jun 10th, 2004 at 1:48am
Johnny, Chris, Hondero,

Thanks for the welcome!

Johnny,
So you're a 3rd-c. nutter, too, eh? Well, I do 4th c. mainly, but it's but a small step back in time to you. Thanks for the praise btw.
The ref. for arrow-throwing is:
Payne-Gallwey, Ralph (1903): The Book of the Crossbow, pp. 243-6 (Dover, reprint 1995):http://biologybooks.net/search_Ralph_Payne-Gallwey/searchBy_Author.html.
I'll post a scan of the throwing technique.

I have not read up on slingers during the 7th
century, but I do know they were massively recommended. Most infantrymen would have had slings with them, we're not talking about a specialist unit.

Yurek,
That's a brilliant design! I will try that instead of the cestos, which indeed seems problematic for longer darts.

Chris,
Thanks for the welcome. Indeed, darts go a lot further, but what did they look like in the 5th and 6th century is a bit of a mystery. or why they eventually went out of fashion.

Hondero,
Yes, you are of course correct, the plumbata is not the same as a cestos. However, we don't know anything about the actual length (no shafts survived), nor of the actual delivery method. It could be very short, it could be as long as 60 cm. The weight is mostly 10-15 cm from the point, not in the centre. So yes, it is different from the cestos (otherwise we could assume at least the Byzantines would have used that name), but you can’t say a plumbata was not thrown by a sling.

I assume the range of the plumbata will have been less because of the weight. Furthermore, the weight makes this weapon different, in that it is meant to land vertically.

Your description of 'arrow-throwing' is very accurate, but then I’ve seen pictures.  ;D I’ll post one here soon.

Cheers,
Robert


Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Hondero on Jun 10th, 2004 at 3:56pm
Robert,
You are right about the ignorance on plumbata messures, and in fact I don´t  know any description or reference about plumbata in ancient literature except maybe they were hidden after the shields by the light troops, and this is a clue about its maximum size.

I find  difficult a plumbata to be thrown by a sling due its weight distribution. The dart of the cestros has the gravity center near  the point and this allow to rotate it with a sling without entangling the cords and be sent point first, but the plumbata would need another type of sling, maybe the device of Yurek. I have to try.

About the use of the cestros by Byzantines, I think they applied this name to a machine for throwing big arrows, I remember to have read something about it.

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Mithras on Jul 9th, 2004 at 3:40pm
Here's a recent close-up of my lefty son about to cast the cestrosphendon:

http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v299/lord_mithras/History1/cestros2.jpg

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Johnny on Jul 9th, 2004 at 7:57pm
That lefty lad of yours looks dangerous! I see that your windows are still intact!
How does that cestrophendon perform?
Johnny
PS-I'm a lefty also!!!

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by lobohunter on Sep 9th, 2004 at 1:06am
i made one of these i was very impressed I made a very modern dart using  31inch 2219 true flight alum arrow
i cut it down to 19 inches filled last five inches full of lead and stuck a field point on it fly's great  my back yard target area is only fifty yards so i had to go light to stay on the range

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Johnny on Sep 9th, 2004 at 8:15am
Looks great Lobo!
Do you have some juicy steaks on that grill or is that your forge with the flames leaping!

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Gun on Sep 9th, 2004 at 9:11am
How did you fill the last few inches with lead? I have also made one from an old arrow. They make good lawn darts too.

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by lobohunter on Sep 9th, 2004 at 11:23am
The flames are my forge; actuly a old portable one.
I filled the last five inches with lead by melting the lead.
stuffing a wad of paper five inches down the arrow shaft.  Then I poured in the moulten lead.  Setting the field point into the lead before it cooled.
The thing I like about that arrangment, is you can actuly unscrew the field point if need be. doesn't really hold  in once taken out. But a easy way to remove it
Gun I was noticeing that mine felt a lot like a lawn dart

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Mithras on Sep 9th, 2004 at 3:38pm
Johnny, yes, my son is a dab hand at slinging but has not used the kestros much. It was a great little weapon until the dart snapped (twice!!) at the join between wood and metal.

I've recently joined Comitatus, a Late Roman group and we use a dart staff sling. Now the thread layout isn't great and 50% time gets fouled (not good in front of a crowd). I've rigged up a new system and made my own sling and blunt dart to test it on. It works like a damn dream at the moment (gentle flights in the garden).

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v299/lord_mithras/History1/DSCF1179.jpg

On Saturday I hope to give it the full 100% test-fly!

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Gun on Sep 9th, 2004 at 8:08pm
lobohunter my dart is 9 1/2 inches from nock to the insert (yeah i put the old insert in it). It is a 2315 arrow with a 125 grain head. It is a little short but it works good for a lawn dart. How much would you estamate that the lead you poured in there weights? I know my dart is short but i am trying to make a cestrophendon/sling combo so i can shoot both stone and dart from the same sling. Would be cool to for bow season when those pesky squirrels come close. I could just grab a dart a sling it at them.

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by lobohunter on Sep 10th, 2004 at 1:51am
well waying a empty arrow also cut to 18 1/2 inches with the field point on my on my postage scale subtracting that from the other almost exactly 3.5 ounces I am also using 125 grain field points. I now have three so I can do a little target practice.
good  luck with bow hunting our season opens up un the 26th of this month

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Gun on Sep 10th, 2004 at 9:20am
Ours in Arkansas runs from september 1 to Feburay 15.

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by lobohunter on Sep 10th, 2004 at 11:59am
till Feb 12 huh!
I will be in Arkanas in early jan for about two weeks
maybe I should tell my in laws in Fortsmith that I want
a permit for christmas lol.

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Gun on Sep 10th, 2004 at 8:34pm
Well i don't think you in-laws will like the price. A 3 day nonresident liscense is $100, 5 day is $125. If your in the Mtn. Home area around then and we don't have three foot of ice, tell me.

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by lobohunter on Sep 13th, 2004 at 2:08am
you know gun I have seen a lot higher prices or non-res
but i am sure your right. even though each of them has devoured their weight in elk and bear summer sausage I have brought them.Not to mention smoked salmon. If I am going to be in the area  i certainly will give you a shout .

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Dan_Bollinger on Sep 13th, 2004 at 7:03pm
I see I'm returning to this forum just in time to bring this thread back on topic.

I've completed braiding my Kestros sling based on a preliminary design that I thought was effective as well as fulfilling the ancient descriptions and I made a number of Kestros during the last year to try. I had every intention of trying them out over the weekend and reporting to you all, but alas, life got in the way once again.

Rest assured, I'll have photos and a report very, very soon. I just wanted everyone to know that I've not evaporated. yours, Dan

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Johnny on Sep 13th, 2004 at 7:44pm
It's about time Dan!
We thought you had left the country!
Well, I guess even if you left the country, you could still log on somewhere!
Johnny
PS-And get those pics up quickly, the suspense is killing us!

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Dan_Bollinger on Sep 18th, 2004 at 11:22am
Here's a preliminary report. I don't have a photograph of the sling, my stepson borrowed my camera before I remembered I needed to take the picture. I didn't go to the soccer field to try some ranging. I just did some easy throws in the front yard to get a feel for the rig. The top one was easy to toss, probably because of its weight. The bottom one always acted a little odd. The middle one performed the best overall, which I find encouraging since I made a series of kestros with various weights and lengths. But, further testing is needed.



The kestros (and sling) are made from my interpretation of the Livius description with the help of history of technology professor Vern Foley. The points were turned on a lathe from steel with the intent that they are reasonable renditions of forged points of the era.

Overall:
Top = 37.8 cm, 116 g
Middle = 37.8 cm, 65 g
Bottom = 31.9 cm, 43 g

Points:
Top = 14.8 cm
Middle = 12.8 cm
Bottom = 7.2 cm

Once I get some more photos, tests and data like their center of gravity, I'll make a permanent webpage.  Dan

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Johnny on Sep 18th, 2004 at 1:12pm
Dan,
Those darts are awesome! You must have access to a machine shop in order to use a lathe. Can't wait to see the sling! Great job!
Johnny

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Hondero on Sep 18th, 2004 at 1:25pm
Good cestros, Dan!! It´s a very fine work. I like these iron points, one half point and the other half tube as Livius said. Also the total lenght is right, and the wooden fins, more or less at the middle of the shaft (I suppose that this "middle" of Livius means not near the end to place the end into the loop of the sling) . Only, if you  allow me the comment, the lenght of the iron is shorter than the one described in the texts, that would be about 15 cm (two palms) and the shaft would be about 22,5 cm.
But acordding to my experiences and designes, your design also works better than the one describe by Livius.

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Mithras on Sep 18th, 2004 at 2:22pm
Aren't they fantastic. Make my attempts look pretty feeble! How do you attach the wooden fins securely??

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Dan_Bollinger on Sep 18th, 2004 at 5:20pm
I got my camera back, so maybe tomorrow I can get a sling photo up.

Johnny, I have a shop downstairs with a metal lathe to cut the points...

...and a mill to cut the slots for the fletches, Mithras. Glue does the rest.

Hondero, Yes, making sense of poor description and the ancient units of measurement is quite a task. The worst is the 'palm' which can be 3" to 7" depending on where and when the speaker is.  I also figure that the idea of precision measurement was not something ancient people thought much about. So, I add the word 'approximately' in front of every measurement.  I could write a short paper on translating the Livius article. I'm sure you could too.

More soon, Dan


Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Johnny on Sep 18th, 2004 at 5:21pm
Dan,
How much would you charge to make the metal heads? I think several folks on this site may be interested.
Johnny

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Gun on Sep 18th, 2004 at 6:24pm
Why the wooden fins? Is it a traditional thing, or is it just they look nice? I would think that the wood fins would break very easily during the wear and tear that the darts take.

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Johnny on Sep 18th, 2004 at 6:50pm
Gun
Livy describes the fins being made out of fir wood. If I remember correctly!

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Gun on Sep 18th, 2004 at 6:54pm
But why wood? I understand the old books say to but whay not feather?

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Johnny on Sep 18th, 2004 at 7:06pm
If you look at the old crossbow bolts from the 14th-15th centuries, you'll notice that the fletching is made of parchment. Because the bolt was so heavy, it may have took a heavier material besides feathers to keep the projectile steady. You've got me curious, I'll try to look this up in my vast library!!
Johnny

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Dan_Bollinger on Sep 18th, 2004 at 7:57pm
Concerning measurements, I copied this from my notes:

So, the length of the dart or Kestros is, according to:

Polybius: 2 palms (~6") + 1 span (~9") = ~15"
Livy: 2 palms (~6") + ½ cubit (~9") = ~15"
Hawkins: ½ elle = 15"

Hondero, I added the point dimensions under the photo. The longest one is 15 cm as Polybius says. Then again, maybe his 'palm' was smaller?  ;)

Johnny, Sorry, I don't want to take on another project!

Gun, Livy said the fins were made from firwood.

Crossbow bolts of the era were also about 15" in length.  It is likely, I think, that the Kestros is derived from the bolts used for the gastraphetes (belly bow). Slingers would have had access to bowmen.


Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Matthias on Sep 19th, 2004 at 2:24pm
Oooooh those are pretty... Nice work Dan! Looking forward to the full report.

Matthias

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Johnny on Sep 20th, 2004 at 2:21pm
Have you got those pics ready!!!!
Let us know how it performs.
Johnny

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Dan_Bollinger on Sep 20th, 2004 at 8:01pm
Here is the Kestros sling I made for my reconstruction. It has 'two thongs of unequal length'.  However, both are released at the same time. The ancient description says 'one thong releases the dart.'  I'm going to rebraid the sling and try releasing just the shorter thong.  I painted the wood flourescent pink to keep from loosing the darts.

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Dan_Bollinger on Sep 25th, 2004 at 1:32pm
bump

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Gun on Sep 25th, 2004 at 3:43pm
I have you thrown it yet? How well does it fly?

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Johnny on Sep 25th, 2004 at 7:28pm
I don't see the thongs of unequal length. Hmmm... It's an interesting concept. How does it work? I think Hondero's version is closer to Livy's description. I think your darts are the best. We need to conduct many tests with all the designs.
Johnny

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Dan_Bollinger on Sep 25th, 2004 at 8:08pm
Gun, see my preliminary tests on the previous page.

Johnny, The thong holding the point is shorter than the other one. That's why the dart is tilted upward.

This is a requirement and not arbitrary, by the way. I did some tests. if the dart is tossed with a sling of equal lengths it falls out of the sling during the throw. Tilting the dart moves it center of  mass and keeps it in the sling until released.

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Hondero on Sep 26th, 2004 at 2:47am
Humm... that´s a peculiar interpretation of the sling, with a big splited pouch to hold the dart, quite similar to the Yurek´s first one. I remember I said then that being  the cords so separate they could be tangled when hurling. Lastly Yurek changed to other interesting designe that hold the dart by its gravity center, like the solution used by David Engeval. But I think all these designes don´t match the Livius descriptions, that in other hand is not evident, with even that word "scutalia" that some authors translate like "leather pouch"  and others like "leather strap", being in both cases a thong, short or longer.

But apart from the historical reconstruction, an efficient designe has to be tested exhaustively. I´ve thrown the cestro maybe a thousand times before arriving to my last sling designe, improving many details, though the basic designe has ever been the same, based on two diferents pouches for holding the point and the tail of the dart. Finally I´m fully satisfied with the results, but don´t exclude others solutions, though my experience tell me that one must follow the ancients and theirs well tested designes on the battlefields.

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Zorrro on Oct 2nd, 2004 at 3:33am
Excuse my ignorance about kestros, Just using my common sense  i find Hondero's design more reliable, but i'll make a change just to see how it works....  Why not try to make the back end of the shaft hole the release cord instead of the point arrow? this will low pressure of the point at the leather pouch and  a smoother launching... besides arrow would have to spin on it's back side adding some momentum at the releasing time...  anyway fins will stabilice arrow point forward in a few ,
Can anyone of the "cestrosphendoners" try this?
what do you think?
I would make it but i need to start from scratch making the arrows and so.... so for me it's a long term project.

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by lobohunter on Oct 5th, 2004 at 9:26am
O. k what hurling styles are the other "cestrosphendoners" using I am at the moment using an under hand and am not very impressed with my distance not that I have much control yet. Yesterday morning was the first time I got to open up and see any
distance. I took my "toys" out to the beach bright and early but to my surprise was only achieving 60- 70 yards
distance granted at 40-50 yards the darts really slam into my target  using over hand or under hand. now with the under hand I had way to much height every time. so that could be lowered and probably gain me some distance

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Hondero on Oct 6th, 2004 at 1:36pm

wrote on Oct 2nd, 2004 at 3:33am:
..  Why not try to make the back end of the shaft hole the release cord instead of the point arrow? this will low pressure of the point at the leather pouch and  a smoother launching...


That would be a solution, but the dart would be placed in the sling almost horizontal to not slip out in the hurling, and this have the problem of the separations of the thongs and the posible tangle.
There are several ways of throwing the cestros more or less effectives, but the interesting thing to me is finding the original macedonian one, that was described by Polibius and Livy without much succes  ;D.
If  someone could translate Greek in the forum we could detail some doubtful aspects of the weapon, as the text of Polibius is the interesting one. Livius translate badly Polibius text and morover the manuscripts that has arrived to us are deteriorated and with confused words.


Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Matthias on Oct 6th, 2004 at 1:58pm
I'm impressed with the work you guys are putting in on these guys. It will be interesting to see how Dan makes out with different sling geometries. Great darts... I'd like to play too, but the greater "apparent lethality" of darts over say golfballs makes throwing a pretty dicey proposition as long as I'm stuck in the city.

Look forward to more reports!

Matthias

Hondero - I cleaned up the quote in your post

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Hondero on Oct 8th, 2004 at 12:51pm
Deepening more in this topic, which can interest to the researchers and fans of the weapon as Dan, Mithras, Thom Richardson, Yurek, etc, I said before that the text of Polibius is the most interesting since he was contemporary of the invention of the cestrosphendone and in addition he lived directly the events of his time, participating in many of them. His testimony is a direct source. It is not the case of Livius, who was exclusively a man of letters, dedicated entirely to write and using generally like sources secondary writings, although in the case of cestrosphendon it seems that he translated Polibius, but without much fortune, giving the impression that he did not understand very well how the weapon worked.
I said that if somebody could translate Greek, it would be very helpful to clarify some details of the weapon, but at least it would be helpful to get different translations from Polibius in several languages. I have three translations, in English, Spanish and French. The three are almost exact and say in regard to the sling:

"The thongs of the sling from wich the missile was discharged were of unequal lengh, and it was so inserted into the loop betwen them that it was easily freed. There it remain fixed while the thongs were whirled round and taut, but when at the moment of discharge one of the thongs was loosened, it left the loop and was shot like a leaden bullet... "

Nevertheless the translations differ as far as the position of the fins in the dart. Two of them say that they were placed in the middle of the shaft and another in the half of the dart, which place it  in an almost contiguous position of the iron. This disposition of the fins so advanced and not towards the tail like in the arrows and crossbow darts, would be detrimental for the stability of the flight, which indicates that it had to be necessary for other aims, like its adaptation to the special sling that sent it. It is a very clear clue about the design of the sling.
The description of the sling that makes Polibius is very general and he does not enter into the details of how the dart was attached to the sling, reason why almost any design would adapt his description. For that reason the most significant is this detail of the central positioning of the fins in the dart.

There is only one reference about a person who has tried to reconstruct the cestrosphendon and experimented with it, although it does not seem he did it exhaustively. He nevertheless has the merit of been the first that did it. He is a French, M. Alexandre Bertrand (1874) and his interpretation of the weapon is the one of this picture from him, that is enough to explain his idea.



Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Yurek on Oct 8th, 2004 at 7:21pm
Hondero,

According to the quoted by you translation, the sling had no pouch for keeping the arrow head. Polibius mentioned only about a loop, which fixed the missle, while thongs were taut. It gives me the idea, that the loop might be able to tighten.

It loks like a classic sling with splited cradle matches that description. There is the one diference, one of the thongs is shorter. There is also question of the clench loop. The following skeches, should give an idea.



Maybe the missle should be more erected along the cords, anyway it deppends on a position of the gravity center of it.



During whirling the shorter thong with the release knot is clenching the loop around the shaft, after the release of it, the retention cord looses the loop and lets the arrow go very easly.

In that design, where the arrow is supported only in a one point the described position of the fins seems to make sens too. It is very very similar to your, Hondero "lasso sling" or "lasso cestro" from the topic

http://www.slinging.org/forum2/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=1;action=display;num=1087313657;start=0#0

The sense is the same. You mentioned it working ok. Well, maybe one of these designs is just the historical cestro ??? Who knows...

Jurek

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Johnny on Oct 8th, 2004 at 8:10pm
Hondero, Yurek,
Great illustrations!
It seems the dart would fly loose out of the "pinch" loop as the centrifugal forces built up. I think Hondero's reconstruction is closer to Polybius' text.
Johnny

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by tint on Oct 8th, 2004 at 10:33pm
Can sombody film a video throwing the darts?  I am quite confused as to how this is done.  

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Hondero on Oct 9th, 2004 at 11:59am
Good idea Yurek!...  Yes, I think your designe works in a similar way to "lasso sling" as the gravity center of the cestro is on the iron and the dart will place as a continuation of the cords. I like better your idea of attaching the dart by its gravity center, before the fins, that makes the dart to spin point first and start the flight  this way. The sling dosn´t need a pouch and can be a simple cord with the dart attached by this knot:



1 is the release cord and is shorter than the retention cord 2. At the release the knot undo.

About the interpretation of Polibius text, I´ll post later on some considerations that allow new designes. I think the text is so general that one must interpret it looking at how he say things better than a direct interpretation. For instance... why he say "the thongs of the sling from wich the missil was discharged were of unequal length.." instead of saying merely "the thongs of the sling were of unequal lenght..."?  Is he refering to another special thongs to attach the dart to the sling?  ::)

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Yurek on Oct 9th, 2004 at 6:44pm
Hondero,

Brilliant idea in its simplicity! Maybe that will work well with stones too?

Yeach, I also prefer designs with an arrow fixed only in its centre of gravity. With my "nail-cestro" I was reaching pretty good ranges. However that is the only design of cestro I played with, so I can't judge others.

You are right, the descripton isn't enough exact, in order to make an accurate reconstruction. There is only some probablity of getting proper design.

Johnny,

you are right, arrows might escape from the loop, I didn't tested that.

Dan,

I would really love to try your arrows in my "nail-cestro-sling" :)

Jurek

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Gun on Oct 9th, 2004 at 8:09pm
Hondero the picture on this page that you posted. Is this dart from diagram from Polibius or is this you design? What i mean did Polibius tell anything about the dart?

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Hondero on Oct 10th, 2004 at 3:37am

wrote on Oct 9th, 2004 at 8:09pm:
Hondero the picture on this page that you posted. Is this dart from diagram from Polibius or is this you design? What i mean did Polibius tell anything about the dart?


Gun, the picture is by this french guy from XIX century I mentiond, Mr. Bertrand, who follows exactly the dart description of Polibius. The dart description is very accurate and there is not much doubt about it,  at the contrary that with the sling. Curiously, the shape of the iron head is a typicall designe that have been used along the times for crossbow bolts. I have got several medieval specimens of iron heads like that.

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Douglas_The_Black on Nov 3rd, 2004 at 7:16pm
Just want to keep this one on top. ;D keep refering too it. and its hard too find.

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by lobohunter on Nov 4th, 2004 at 2:20am
I have had a thought has any one tried a very short dart in a normal sling say three four inches long most of the weight in the head
I am really busy at work right now but when i get some free time I want to try this
I know it won't be historicaly correct but.

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Gun on Nov 4th, 2004 at 9:45am
Yes i did try it. That is why i made such a short dart. I try it to put the dart where the sting mets the leather. It did not work for me. I am sure that if you had a special desiened sling you could make it work. Combine the  Cestrosphendon and the Sling and you have one verisetial weapon.

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by mgreenfield on Nov 4th, 2004 at 10:33am
How about a "standard" lead glande, measuring (say)1.5"long x 1"dia, but with one end extended slightly and pointed, and a short shaft on the other end with small fletching?    Seems like such a projectile should work in a regular sling.     No??  What happens to keep it from working???    mgreenfield

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by lobohunter on Nov 4th, 2004 at 5:49pm
mgreenfield;
that is just what I had in mind hmm but isnt that kinda like a sabbot
'

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Gun on Nov 4th, 2004 at 8:15pm
I wonder if a person could cast a lead projectial around a short arrow shaft. Then you would have a easly way to mount the fins.

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by lobohunter on Nov 5th, 2004 at 3:22am
well I was planning on cuting down one of my damaged alumium shaft making it just fletching and arrow head insert  filling the rest full of lead and see what I got

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Douglas_The_Black on Nov 6th, 2004 at 8:12am
you know. i walked around town picking up old lead fishing weights, and the tire lead, and just any spare lead i could find. i made a mold, to make sling/ staff sling ammo. then i made about 6 shots out of maybe a month of work picking up that lead.  Lost all 6 shots. they worked great but it pissed me off. now i learn that i can buy lead at a store! ahh.

Title: e: Cestrosphendon
Post by Hondero on Nov 9th, 2004 at 4:48pm
Interesting how is going on this thread. I knew a guy who tried that type of glans with short fins and an little iron point, and he said it works.
I´ve tried shorts darts like cestros or croosbow bolts with a conventional sling and though it´s a little difficult to get the technique it works too. The dart is placed crossed in the pouch, like a glans, by its gravity center. When you make the windup the dart moves always point first due to the fins and twist the cords making impossible a suitable throwing, but  if you twist previously the sling contrariwise the same number of times as your spinning, then at the release  the cords are parallel and the dart goes out freely and perfectly oriented forward. The best is to make only one or two revolutions to get a good control.
About glandes with fins I think it will work in the same way but the glans may not be perfectly oriented when spinning, and the release not be point first, but eventually along the flight they will be well oriented due to the fins, though lossing part of its energy.

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by lobohunter on Nov 9th, 2004 at 6:12pm
Talking about glands with fins my broad head glands http://www.slinging.org/forum2/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=1;action=display;num=1095027492 have kinda have fins but they if thrown with a wide grip spiral pretty easy and when they spiral they have a noticable lift in their flight patern

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by english on Nov 10th, 2004 at 1:10pm
What Hondero says makes sense.  I tried using a sling to throw darts, and it worked, but it wasn't very reliable and I didn't develop good technique.  However... I think if you had spirally fletched darts/arrows then it would work well, because the spiral would actually power it forward simply whilst in the pouch and out.  I might give it a go.

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Douglas_The_Black on Nov 11th, 2004 at 3:45pm
hmm that sounds cool.

now to make the dart i just cut down an old true flight aluminum arrow  to the specifick length. Fill the end with lead and put the arrow insert back in? Ok i can do that.

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by lobohunter on Nov 12th, 2004 at 2:57am
awsome we will expect a full report lol

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Douglas_The_Black on Nov 12th, 2004 at 1:55pm
How did you poor the lead in without spilling any? very very carefully?

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by lobohunter on Nov 12th, 2004 at 4:01pm
yes very carefully and i did spill some i stick the arrow in a box of sand with the end facing up so itdoes't matter so much if you spill a little

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Douglas_The_Black on Nov 17th, 2004 at 7:08pm
Ahhh clever. I am trying to get my brother to give up one of his arrows for the good of slinging. he wont do it. i may have to use some hostile negotating to get him to give up the arrow. what do you use to melt your led in? I have this big old old anticke lade. Its huge and heavy made of i think iron. But it works gread for melting lead and getting hot coals out of the fire. Its not great for precise pooring but its nice.

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Douglas_The_Black on Nov 21st, 2004 at 2:12pm
im having some problems with the darts. The dart is supposed to be heaver at the head right? I want to make the dart that looks a little like a screw driver at the front attached to a wooden back. I dont know if thats what it is but thats what i think it is. I think its hondaros dart. not shure.

has any one been playing with the kestros lately? how is it going for you guys?

heres hoping that i can figure this thing out
douglas

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by DuckofDeath on Nov 25th, 2004 at 1:50pm
Great thread on this intriguing device!  I don't recall seeing a full bibliographic citation for Bertrand's article, though.  I came across a reference, however, so I'm supplying it here:

Alexandre Bertrand, "Le Kestre ou Kestrosphendone," Revue Archeologique, Vol. 27, 1874, pp. 73-78 and pl. II.

Anyone out there have access to a library that carries issues of that journal that go back that far?  If I recall correctly, this guy's working model had a range of 70 meters.  

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Hondero on Nov 27th, 2004 at 12:41pm
Welcome D.D, it´s nice to see one more  person interested in this weapon and that the thread is still alive. Maybe someone from France could have acces to that article by A. Bertrand and post it for us. It would be great... I´ve read several quotes of it, the most interesting is in the "Dictionnaire des Antiquités Grecques et Romaines" by D´Aremberg et Saglio (1892) where they explain the experiences of Bertrand. I think Bertrand made an interesting reconstruction of the weapon, but there are still some uncertainties about it. What I´m sure is that Bertrand was not a good slinger  ;D because 70 meters is a very short range. Or maybe his reconstruction was not enough good. I can reach 150 or more, just the same as with a stone (and this is a poor record for some slingers in this forum) ;)

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Yurek on Nov 27th, 2004 at 3:13pm

wrote on Nov 27th, 2004 at 12:41pm:
...I can reach 150 or more, just the same as with a stone (and this is a poor record for some slingers in this forum) ;)


Hondero,

You are a record holder :) Just you have started the longest topic on the forum! The 117 replays, over 3100 views and 12 pages of posts are something. Congratulations!

The 150+ metres isn't a poor range at all. The Balaric record is 186 m or so, they have many years' experiences though.

Jurek

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Douglas_The_Black on Nov 28th, 2004 at 11:42am
in the other primitive weapons  theres a few threads 14 pages long.


I still havent gotten around to making that arrow yet. Too busy making pitch pots. And i have wasted most of my lead on making glands that i can never find after i throw them.

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by DuckofDeath on Nov 29th, 2004 at 2:40am
So is this the rig you used to set your 150 m record?



wrote on Apr 12th, 2004 at 12:45pm:
This thread was forgotten and without finishing, and also I remember I´ve promised some pictures about, so I return to it after having been practicing something with the cestro these holidays. I have reproduced faithfully the design of the dart according to the clasic authors, but I´ve found it a little heavy and it does not work very well, requiring much ability to send it and that it flies right. I have made some modern darts, lighter and more stable in flight, and then everything works perfectly. I have used the type of sling that I described previously in the thread and that I suppose is the most likely interpretation of clasic texts. The images clarifies the subject by themselves.




The dart of the image, even been modern, approach the classic design as far as the relative dimensions, the positioning of the fins in half of the shaft, etc. Nevertheless, the dart is shorter, about a foot, and the weight is about 200 grs.The iron is a tube to insert the shaft, and one end is squashed and sharpened to make the point. Also it has been partially filled up with melted lead to give the suitable weight that would have a massive iron point. The fins are the conventional ones of the arrows. The image of the dart is from some months ago and is the only image I keep up, although the last darts I´ve made and experiment with are lighter, of about 100 grs, with the iron point shortened to the half and the fins placed more towards the end to give more stability to the flight. With this last design the flight is very straight and the range is surprising, as much as to lose all darts I´ve made  :-/.


Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by DuckofDeath on Nov 29th, 2004 at 3:22am

wrote on Sep 18th, 2004 at 5:20pm:


...and a mill to cut the slots for the fletches...


Could you describe how you set up the mill and secured the shaft to do this? Thanks.    

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Douglas_The_Black on Nov 29th, 2004 at 9:02am
how did you make that dart?

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Mike_R on Dec 30th, 2004 at 5:20pm
Just bringing this one to the front.

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by DuckofDeath on Mar 25th, 2005 at 11:54pm
Does anyone on the forum have access to a journal called Arms & Armour?  An upcoming issue is supposed to have an article on the cestrosphendone:

http://www.maney.co.uk/articles-aaa

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Douglas_The_Black on Mar 26th, 2005 at 7:57am
well i made a kestrose a few months back, and i could not get it to work. All i could do was tangel and twist the cords. sadly i gave up.  :(

but i think that i may give it another shot.  :)

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Hondero on Mar 27th, 2005 at 8:13am
Duck, thanks for your quote about that journal Arms and Armours, it´ll be most interesting to have this article on cestrosphendon here if someone can get it. When I´ve the time I´ll post some images of  my last reconstruccion of the weapon that works perfectly.

Hondero

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Johnny on Mar 27th, 2005 at 9:09pm
I really want to read that article! Anyone subscribe to this magazine?


Hondero,
I would like to see your latest design.

Johnny

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by DuckofDeath on Mar 29th, 2005 at 2:07am
It appears that Arms and Armour is based out of Leeds, UK.  Ought to be some Brits on the forum who have access to it...

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by VortigernStudies on Mar 30th, 2005 at 1:50am
Hondero,

Are those wooden flights?
Did you glue them on or something?

Cheers,
Robert Vermaat
FECTIO

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by english on Mar 30th, 2005 at 3:58am
I could probably find a copy or two of that magazine somewhere.  I'll have a look.

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Hondero on Mar 31st, 2005 at 3:39pm
Robert, the fins are made of plastic, inserted into the shaft and glued. Well, is a modern cestro but I´ve tried also wooden fins an they work  worse. By the way, do you think that a plumbata could be thrown with a sling like a cestro? The table 6 of Chris pictures show a thing that can be a cestro or a plumbata, may be Chris can clarify the subjet...
Hondero

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Hondero on May 10th, 2005 at 4:19pm

wrote on Mar 30th, 2005 at 3:58am:
I could probably find a copy or two of that magazine somewhere.  I'll have a look.


English, did you find that article on cestrosphendon? It´s most interesting  :o

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by DuckofDeath on Jun 11th, 2005 at 2:44am

wrote on Mar 31st, 2005 at 3:39pm:
I´ve tried also wooden fins an they work  worse.


If the purpose of fins was simply stabilization in flight, why wouldn't feather fletching work?  Why do the ancient sources particularly specify wood, which makes for rigid rather than flexible fins?  In addition to stabilization, could the fins also have served as rigid lugs that could have held the dart in the sling?  Just a thought.  

Anybody heard when that article is supposed to be coming out?

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Crater_Caster on Jun 11th, 2005 at 10:50pm
i tried making a cestrosphendone and it would fly well if I threw it by hand, but when I used the sling, it spun around and did flips. What am I doing wrong?

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by me on Jun 11th, 2005 at 11:02pm
im guessing its something to do with your slinging style or release. good luck.

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by DuckofDeath on Jul 23rd, 2005 at 10:41pm
Is it soup yet?

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by DuckofDeath on Jul 29th, 2005 at 5:39pm

wrote on Mar 30th, 2005 at 3:58am:
I could probably find a copy or two of that magazine somewhere.  I'll have a look.


I've heard that the latest issue of Arms & Armour is supposedly out now...

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Gun on Jul 30th, 2005 at 9:33am
I would really like to read the article too! ;D

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by DuckofDeath on Aug 26th, 2005 at 6:39pm
I have confirmation that the latest issue of the journal has been printed.  How long it will take to get into bookstores and libraries, I don't know; but our British posters should be on the lookout...

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Taiki on Dec 1st, 2005 at 4:57pm
i'm really going to try hondero's design and yureks and going to see wich works best for me

also why has none of you rather smart looking idividuals thought of buying those cheap plastic crossbowbolts i've seen here (or am i just being really lazy again :-/ :-[

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by lobohunter on Dec 1st, 2005 at 10:57pm
I am curently  working on a dart shaped glan
not the same thing  but its idea i am growing fond of

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Gun on Dec 3rd, 2005 at 8:12am
sweet

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by BrianS on Dec 12th, 2005 at 2:49pm
Ok I just read this entire thread and has anyone found that article on these things?  Maybe I can convince my local Librarian to sign up for the trial offer of Arms and Armor so I can access the article.  I doubt it, but its worth a shot.

Brian

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Crater_Caster on Dec 12th, 2005 at 6:00pm
Careful, some librarians can be scary. Especially if you have late fees...  ;)
Speaking of kestros, I am going to try an incendiary dart. It would seem easier to make than a fire rock...

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Douglas_The_Black on Dec 13th, 2005 at 2:56pm
OH NO RETURN OF THE KESTROS THREAD!

I have tryed a fire dart..they are hard to make too :)

haha just talk to Jack he is a scary librarian!

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by DuckofDeath on Jan 14th, 2006 at 10:24pm
ttt

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Hellfire on Jan 22nd, 2006 at 11:44am
just got done making a kestros. Didnt really work that great, I dont know, maybe I made it wrong or the ammo isnt heavy enough (a little over an ounce). Well have to give it another try, have all of sunday to get it done.

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by lobohunter on Jan 22nd, 2006 at 11:57am
I personaly have work in a librarry a couple of times in my life
Also I have been refered to as conan the librarian lol

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by DuckofDeath on Mar 4th, 2006 at 8:30pm
ttt

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by dork on Mar 5th, 2006 at 1:20am
Thanks for the pictures the explanation lost me a little. Man! that thing looks brutal

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Douglas_The_Black on Mar 5th, 2006 at 9:41am
whats the ttt mean?

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Willeke on Mar 5th, 2006 at 11:07am
To The Top?
Just a guess, but it does make sense to me.
And I think this is a thread that deserves to stay alive.

Willeke

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Unsapien on Mar 6th, 2006 at 2:27am
Wow...

I just read the entire thread...

*Blink*

I don't see anything here that's definitive. There seems to be no consistency in design.

needs thought...

-Unsapien

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Douglas_The_Black on Mar 6th, 2006 at 8:16pm
yes I did that once apon a time. When i made the kestros i could not get it to work :-/

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by CanDo on Mar 6th, 2006 at 8:30pm
i'm not even going to try....

at least not until i have a nice bow, small knife, chainmail, large knife, blowgun, and shield done....

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by dork on Mar 9th, 2006 at 6:49pm
It seems to me that if you were going to go through the trouble to make the darts for a war i assume; wouldn't it be easier to just add a cord to the end. Keep one sling for stones and just throw the darts with there own cords attached. I would not want that thing whirling around my head and not release right. You know what I mean If you ever had a stone refuse to release. I comes right back at you. I'd rather try the saw blades. I would think an attached cord would improve accuarcy and reduce the loss of power. If every dart had a cord you could fire at twice the speed of a bow, with a more powerful weapon.

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Douglas_The_Black on Mar 9th, 2006 at 7:32pm
then it would be a french arrow and not a kestros :-/

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by CanDo on Mar 9th, 2006 at 7:36pm
if it were that simple why wasn't it done? romans were pretty brilliant. would the cord create too much drag?

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Douglas_The_Black on Mar 9th, 2006 at 7:41pm
I know that it would make it more stable in flight but i have no clue about drag and all that. It would cause some be sure but i dont know how much it would effect it.  :)

Every time i come up with a new idea on how to make something better i think well why havent i seen this in history. after trying i find out why..My ideas suck :)

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Taiki on Mar 10th, 2006 at 7:38am
what iff you cut a notch in the back of the arrow and secure the rope with a small dowel so that you just throw it and the rope comes loose ??? just an idea  ;D

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by CanDo on Mar 10th, 2006 at 5:38pm
thats a swiss arrow  ;D

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Hondero on Mar 11th, 2006 at 11:30am
Hola a todos!  Lot of time without writing here... though I read from time to time. One never forget old friends. I see the cestros thread is still alive and that dificulties throwing the cestro are also alive. I´ll tell my secret design, that works right every time and allows you to throw the cestro to 100 or 200 meters, depending on your strength. As I said at the beginning of the thread the main problem is to avoid the cestros point to nail the pouche in the throw. A special double pouche, as sown in the pictures, is the solution. Also is very importante a position almost vertical of the dart, like in the third picture, with little separation of the tongs, so that they do not entangle. If this designe is the genuine greek one, is difficult to say, but Poliby says that de cestros sling had two different "scutalia", and the latin word scutalia means for some authors the pouch of the sling. For others authors scutalia means the tongs of the sling, and is imposible to know the real meaning as the word appears only twice in latin literature.
Well, some pictures explain  my design. You can see that there is a little second pouch over the main, but with an end free. The point stick this piece of leather, but it slip over the main pouch in the throw, freeing the dart, that flies straight. The tanned sufaces of the pouches are in touch so that they slip better.  
Good luck and perseverance, it´s  fantastic to see how the cestros flies!






Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by CanDo on Mar 11th, 2006 at 11:45am
Gracias por los fotos! I've wanted to make one for a while now but haven't seen a design that was as appealing as this. The last photo really shows how the loop, is just a means of stabilising the dart, and giving a straight release. I'll have to give it a try soon!

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Taiki on Mar 12th, 2006 at 3:46pm

wrote on Mar 10th, 2006 at 5:38pm:
thats a swiss arrow  ;D



Thx i had no idea  :o

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Tint on Mar 12th, 2006 at 9:20pm
Hey Hondero!  Long time no see.  Drop in from time to time, we've missed you.

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Johnny on Mar 13th, 2006 at 7:44am
Hondero,
Thanks for the photo! We've missed you! Try to pipe in a little more..!
Johnny

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Yurek on Mar 13th, 2006 at 3:22pm
Hi Hondero!

Nice to see you after a while. The design looks very interesting. I can imagine how it would work. I'm thinking, if such kind of design might to help a stone/glande sling to release more clear. Maybe it is worth to give it a try.

Jurek

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Johnny on Mar 13th, 2006 at 7:18pm
Yurek,
I like your bottom quote!
Johnny

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Hondero on Mar 14th, 2006 at 1:16pm
Hi Johnny, Yurek, Tint, nice to talk again with all you. Yurek, you are right, may be the design gives a stone release more free, and without spin, what can be interesting for some purposes (i.e. a little more range 8) )

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Unsapien on Mar 14th, 2006 at 1:52pm
Nice to finally hear from you in person Hondero.
I have read the thread from end to end, and I was afraid you didn't post any longer.
Your servant,
-Unsapien

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Unsapien on Mar 16th, 2006 at 9:50pm
How is your leather attached to the thongs hondero?
-Unsapien

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Hondero on Mar 17th, 2006 at 1:23pm
Hi Unsapien, the leather ends are glued and right up attached  to the thongs with a resistant thread. Then covered with medical tape.
Good luck and tell your experiences...

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by DuckofDeath on Mar 17th, 2006 at 1:38pm
How much does the dart weigh?

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by MammotHunter on Apr 9th, 2006 at 3:15pm
Well, in typical MammotHunter fashion, while sitting at home bored waiting to go to the movies, I got the "bright" idea to make a cestrosphendone. So, I took a wooden dowel, of admittedly smaller than acceptable calibre, attached a couple of pieces of cardboard to one end with superglue and cut them into flight shapes, and cut a notch into the other end, into which I tied an obsidian arrowhead. I felt that the end needed to be heavier, so I used a piece of seine twine to attach a 1 oz fishing weight to the front to give it a little more mass. I made a cestrosphendone itself earlier, but I found out after trying to throw once that the loop was in the wrong place and the whole thing seemed useless. So, I took the whole thing, slipped two fingers into the fingerloops, held the release cord, and found the middle of the cord, and folded that into my hand to give me two loops of equal length. I put the end of the dart in one loop and slipped the other end of the dart in the front loop, looked around and lobbed the dart with what I thought was a very light toss. Apparently, it was enough to send the dart across my yard, the street and into the neighbour's yard, where it came within yards of striking their house. And this was all from a length of 1/2 cm diametre wooden dowel about a foot long with a fishing weight tied on the front and cardboard glued on the back! Today, I started working on a bigger and heavier design for the dart using a 1 cm diametre dowel length cut slightly longer than the first and I cut some aluminum drink cans and used the metal folded over to make fins instead of cardboard. I may attach a 2 oz sinker this time, just to see what the increase in weight can do for range and impact. This time, I think I'll test it in an open field, though.

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Dan_Bollinger on Apr 12th, 2006 at 8:26pm
I heard through Dale that there was some interest in Kestros again.  

If Arms and Armour is doing an article you can bet Thom Richardson is involved.  He and I exchanged many emails and at one time we talked about doing an article on the Kestros together.  

We moved our server, so my links aren't working. I have put back these images of my kestros and my interpretation of the sling.





I have been unsuccessful tossing these more than 25 yards, but then I haven't given it a lot of time, either.  I did some experimenting. When the sling loops were the same length, the kestros would fall out at the beginning of windup. With the kestros tilted as shown with loops of different length (the history talks about something having different lengths) it would stay in and release, too.  I make no claim that this is what the sling or dart looked like.  Dan

I've been busy, but check in from time to time.

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Dale on Apr 13th, 2006 at 1:34am
Dan,
Thanks for restoring those pictures!

MammotHunter's post immediately before yours, details his experience with a kestros that sounds practically identical to yours (except his had the two loops of equal length).

Hey, MammotHunter!  Any chance you could post pictures of your kestros?  It sounds similar to Dan Bollinger's but not quite identical.  I'd be interested in seeing it.

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by DuckofDeath on Apr 13th, 2006 at 3:22am

wrote on Apr 12th, 2006 at 8:26pm:
If Arms and Armour is doing an article you can bet Thom Richardson is involved.  He and I exchanged many emails and at one time we talked about doing an article on the Kestros together. 


Would it be possible for you to email Thom Richardson and inquire about the status of the article?  I thought it was supposed to be out already....

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Dan_Bollinger on Apr 13th, 2006 at 9:06am
Done.  I wrote Thom.  The Arms and Armour Yearbook was kaput for a year, but has now been resurrected as a peer-reviewed journal.  According to the website, the next issue does not have a Kestros article, but these things are in flux.  Dan

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Arkanii on Apr 13th, 2006 at 11:15am
Hey Dan,
nice kestro arrows, are the tips custom made?

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Dan_Bollinger on Apr 13th, 2006 at 7:51pm
Yes.  I turned them from cold rolled.  While not forged or four-sided, they balance about the same as if they were.

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Dan_Bollinger on Apr 18th, 2006 at 11:38am
I heard back from Thom Richardson.  He said they did some research on the Kestros, but were not planning on publishing anything. He said they did publish an article by an independent slinger in the 2005 edition. I do not have a copy.

Arms & Armour, Vol. 2, No. 1, pp. 79-86, 2005
A new reconstruction of the kestros or cestrosphendone
George M Hollenback - Independent Scholar
http://www.maney.co.uk/contents/aaa/2-1



This article presents a new working reconstruction of an ancient missile weapon described by both Polybius and Livy.

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Hondero on Apr 18th, 2006 at 2:43pm
Hi Dan...Hmmm, Thom Richardson, I see he is not ready to send us this  interesting article, hehe  ...  May be if he were distinguished as a honorable special member of the forum...?

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Hondero on Apr 19th, 2006 at 1:26pm
I´m sorry for the irony of previous message and I request excuses to Thom for that reason, but the fact is that the last year I wrote Maney Publishing requesting the  Arms & Armour 2005 magazine and they did not answer to me. For that reason, I went to a bookstore specialized in foreign book import so that they requested it for me, and Maney did not answer to them either. Are there no way to get the damn article? Could somebody find out the email of  George M Hollenback, the author?

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Dan_Bollinger on Apr 20th, 2006 at 12:32pm
Honderos,  I believe the A&A is not longer the yearbook for the Museum that Thom works for, but is now a journal. As such, Thom does not have access or permission to send us the article.

I search Maney as journal indexers, but can't find the article.  I'll keep trying. Dan

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by DuckofDeath on Apr 21st, 2006 at 2:46pm
Does anyone live near a big city public library?  I know that some libraries have interlibrary loan provisions where you can order books and journal articles from other libraries.  I've heard that with the journal articles, the lending library won't send the journal itself, but will make a xerox copy to send to the requesting library to give to the patron.  I've also heard that this service is free or that any fees are minimal.  Might be worth a shot...      

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Dan_Bollinger on Apr 23rd, 2006 at 8:52am
Say, anyone live near Louisville, KY?  The Royal Armoury has an extension museum there. They, or their curators, may have a copy of Arms & Armour.  I'd guess they would have the complete set.

http://www.frazierarmsmuseum.org/

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Hondero on Jun 15th, 2006 at 4:04pm
Finally I´ve got the Arms &Armour journal with the article on cestros by G. M. Hollenback :). Based only on the Polibius text, he present a new hypothesis of the cestros sling, since on the dart there are almost no doubts and both authors, Livy and Polibius agree in its description. Acording to Hollenback, the sling could be a simple thong that was fitted below the fins of the dart, as it is seen in the photo. There is also  a loop or band so that the shaft end passes through it and the dart don´t slip out during the whirl (this is common in all reconstructions since it is the only reason to place the fins in the middle of the shaft, sacrificing the stability of the flight).
Although I had tried without success this solution some years ago, I´ve made a new cestros with the proper measurements and with the Hollenback fins special shape, and tried it again. Unfortunately, the results were deficient one more time. Sometimes the  design works and others not, that is to say, it is quite uncontrollable since the dart has tendency to clog between the cords or to release erratically due to the strong friction of the retention cord on the fin. This causes that the design of the fin is very critic, needing a very exact curvature, and that the material of the thong and the polish of the fin influences much in the success of the release. In addition, the design works well only for a  mid power, but throwing with high power the dart is clogged between the cords or leaves erratic. Another disadvantage is that it works only underhand, and the author notices it. This last fact should have been enough for the author to realize that the design is erroneous, since a expensive missile as the cestros was not only to be used  like massive rain of projectiles, that is for which serves the underhand style. On the other hand the Hollenback interpretation of Polibius text is a little forced so that it agrees with his design. I think that if Polibius had wanted to describe this design, he had done it in a different way as how he did it ::).
I think I find unlikely that the Greeks used this design. They were excellent  slingers and very efficient constructors of weapons.


Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Dale on Jun 15th, 2006 at 5:45pm
Hondero,

As I look at that photograph and imagine what will happen as you release one cord, it is no wonder to me that it fouls.  I think your own design, first shown in reply #4 in this topic, is superior.

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Thomas on Jun 15th, 2006 at 10:47pm
As I see it, Hondero’s own design as described in post #162 of this thread will give a true “point first” delivery of dart in spite of an apparent sideways path during the cast. This is because all projectiles exiting a sling do so in a radial path i.e. inline with the retention cord. American football spiral passes are thrown with a much more sophisticated hand control and therefore travel as desired.  

Tom      

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by DuckofDeath on Jun 17th, 2006 at 6:59pm

wrote on Jun 11th, 2005 at 2:44am:
Why do the ancient sources particularly specify wood, which makes for rigid rather than flexible fins?  In addition to stabilization, could the fins also have served as rigid lugs that could have held the dart in the sling?  Just a thought.  


Hah!  Looks like I guessed right on this point.

Hondero, would it be possible for you to post a scan of a picture of the weapon in the article?  I'm assuming there are illustrations of some kind.

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Johnny on Jun 17th, 2006 at 11:13pm
Hondero,
Thanks for your efforts on this. It seems the "Cestros" riddle will keep us busy for awhile..!
Johnny

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Hondero on Jun 18th, 2006 at 3:20am
Duck...  the Arms&Armour journal seems to be rigid about author rights and all this... but the picture included in the article is just like mine. There are also a picture of the sling (a simple cord with a band, and the design of the fins.

About the wooded fins, I´ve first thought like you, but some revision of medieval crossbows told me that theirs bolts had  sometimes fins of wood or even metal. In fact, the cestros is very similar in mesures and shape to crossbow bolts, with the exception of the position of the fins in the middle of the shaft.
We know that the Greeks were the  inventors of the crossbow (they call it "gastraphetes" that means belly-bow"). The riddle of all this is that the gastraphetes is former than the cestros, and maybe the cestros was a successful try to cast a bolt to the same distance and preventing the use of a big and heavy instrument as the gastraphetes, that needed besides much more time to recharge. The advantage of the gastraphetes was that it could be used with success by any one non trained and the cestros needed a very well trained man, but the Greeks had at that time excellent slingers.

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by DuckofDeath on Jun 18th, 2006 at 2:23pm

wrote on Jun 15th, 2006 at 4:04pm:
Another disadvantage is that it works only underhand, and the author notices it. This last fact should have been enough for the author to realize that the design is erroneous, since a expensive missile as the cestros was not only to be used  like massive rain of projectiles, that is for which serves the underhand style.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Livy's text have the Romans defensively bunched together on a little hill, surrounded by the Macedonians and taking heavy casualties from darts raining down on their crowded formation?  I think it rather significant that in the only recorded description of the weapon in action, it was being used precisely "like a massive rain of projectiles."      

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Hondero on Jun 19th, 2006 at 11:42am
Yes, this battle of the hill is where Livy mentions the cestros. But he don´t say anything about "dart raining down" He says textually:
There when he had gathered his soldiers "in a circle" so that with their close-packed shields they could protect themselves from the blow of "arrows and javelins"….
That is to say, the Romans defended themselves frontally of the enemy missiles, forming a sort of circular wall with the shields. The missiles do not land from above but were sent frontally against them. The hill would not be very high and the launch range could be medium, like proves the use also of javelins, which range would be about 70 or 80 meters. Simultaneously, the Macedonians ascended by the hill, forcing the Romans to undo the close rank to face them, been then reached by missiles. The weapon that greater damage did there was the cestros, that in my opinion were sent with a trajectory not very curved to that distance.
About the style truly used there…who knows, we can only make a guess, but If I had been there I would have thrown overhand, sure ;D

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by DuckofDeath on Jun 19th, 2006 at 2:38pm
Hondero, you got me curious enough to go back and read the passage in an old Loeb Classical Library edition of Livy.  Here's what precedes the description of the cestrosphendone:

"...he withdrew the soldiers, who were dismayed by the sudden arrival of the enemy, to a nearby hill, intending to defend himself by the strength of the position since he was no match in numbers and power.  There when he had gathered his soldiers in a circle, so that with their close-packed shields they could protect themselves from the blows of arrows and javelins, Perseus, with his men-at-arms surrounding the hill, ordered some to try the ascent from all sides and join battle at close quarters, others to hurl weapons from a distance.  A terrific threat surrounded the Romans, for when massed they could not thrust back those who were struggling up the hill, and whenever they broke ranks by charging forward, they were exposed to javelins and arrows."

The next line--introducing the description of the cestrosphendone--reads:  "They suffered particularly from the dart-slings."

I related this to their entire predicament,  the "terrific threat" that surrounded them as described in the preceding sentence.  When they were bunched up, they would have been vulnerable to darts raining down on them from a high trajectory, but when they advanced they opened themselves up to flatter trajectory arrows and javelins.  Because the "suffered particularly from the dart-slings" follows upon "they were exposed to arrows and javelins," I can see how others might interpret the dart-sling as a flatter trajectory weapon seemingly included with the arrows and javelins.          

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Hondero on Jun 19th, 2006 at 4:27pm
DuckofDeath, I´m not sure if I´ve understood you (ahhh, my english...::)), but Livy says "when massed they could not thrust back those who were struggling up the hill (not that they were exposed to raining down darts), and whenever they broke ranks by charging forward, they were exposed to javelins and arrows" (and cestros too). The Macedonian were superior in number and power, says Livy, and for that the Romans had to avoid they came up the hill for a close quarter battle, but if they broke ranks for charging forward from his advantageous position on the hill, they were exposed to the Roman missiles...
Well, these classic texts are exciting. Thanks to comment it, its a good way to discover a little more about weapons and tactics ;)

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by DuckofDeath on Jun 20th, 2006 at 2:50pm
Hondero, your English as a second language is better than a good many people's English as a first language.  When I first read the Livy passage years ago, my subjective interpretation of how such damage could be done was that the darts were raining from a high trajectory into a densely packed formation.  This was probably because my own slinging as a young man was exclusively underhand distance slinging, trying to hit boulders on the other side of a wide river.  The gravity-aided force with which the stones came down from their high trajectories made quite an impression on me of the damage that could be done to a human target.  Now imagine finned spikes coming down from a high trajectory into a closely-packed formation of men.  

You are quite right that the text doesn't specifically point out that darts rained down into the formation on the hilltop.  However, I find it curious that the darts weren't mentioned in the two "arrows and javelins" phrases in the passage.  The text states that the Romans circled up with raised shields to protect themselves against "arrows and javelins," not "arrows, javelins, and darts."  When they broke ranks and charged forward, they were exposed to "javelins and arrows," not "javelins, arrows, and darts."  If the darts had been launched in unison with the arrows and javelins, it seems the text would have read something along the lines of "when they charged forward, they were exposed to javelins, arrows, and darts.  They suffered particularly from the darts..."

Darn!  I've got to go to work now.  I'll share more on this fascinating subject later.            

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by DuckofDeath on Jun 21st, 2006 at 2:20pm
The Loeb Classical Library edition of Livy has the Latin on the left hand page and the English translation on the right hand page.  I've xeroxed the relevant passage, and although my Latin is poor, I'm going to try to pick my way through some wording that may shed more light on the narrative.

Hondero, does the article say how much that dart weighed?  How much does yours weigh?  Also, you reported that your dart was hanging up.  If you wrapped the cord around just two fins instead of all three, it looks like there would be much less friction.  Is the problem that two fins might break under the stress of the spin, and that the force has to be borne by all three fins?  

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Hondero on Jun 21st, 2006 at 3:32pm
DuckofDeath, I´m out of home this week, even without a dictionary (I feel lost) but I promise you to answer your questions soon. The weight of the cestros point can be calculated easily, in fact I have some bolts of similar size. If you can translate latin text of Livy, is interesting the exact meaning of "he gathered his soldiers in a circle, so that with their close-packed shields.." because there are two ways of packing the shields: frontal around like a circular wall or over the heads like a ceiling, and so to know if the cestros were thrown like a massive rain or like accuracy shots
I´ll be here soon...

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Zwiebeltuete on Jun 21st, 2006 at 4:58pm
If you need a latin dictionary I can recommend following software:

http://users.erols.com/whitaker/words.htm

It is free, knows the grammar of single words and has an amazing number of words. So as long as you have internet access (or later a notebook) it doesn't matter if you are out of home without dictionary.

Zwiebeltuete

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Altay on Jun 21st, 2006 at 9:12pm
Thanks. I've been looking for a Latin-English dictionary forever....

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by DuckofDeath on Jun 22nd, 2006 at 2:13pm

wrote on Jun 19th, 2006 at 2:38pm:
"There when he had gathered his soldiers in a circle, so that with their close-packed shields they could protect themselves from the blows of arrows and javelins, Perseus, with his men-at-arms surrounding the hill, ordered some to try the ascent from all sides and join battle at close quarters, others to hurl weapons from a distance.  A terrific threat surrounded the Romans, for when massed they could not thrust back those who were struggling up the hill, and whenever they broke ranks by charging forward, they were exposed to javelins and arrows."


Here's the corresponding Latin text:

"Ibi cum in orbem milites coegisset, ut densatis scutis ab ictu sagittarum et iaculorum sese tuerentur, Perseus circumdato armatis tumulo alios ascensum undique temptare iubet et comminus proelium conserere, alios eminus tela ingerere.  Ingens Romanos terror circumstabat; nam neque conferti propellere eos qui in tumulum conitebantur poterant et, ubi ordines procursando solvissent, patebant iaculis sagittisque."  

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by DuckofDeath on Jul 16th, 2006 at 3:22am
Some random cogitations on Livy...

The text states that the Romans made a circle to protect themselves against the blows of arrows and javelins, indicating that perhaps as they were being surrounded by the Macedonians they were already being assailed by those weapons.  (The translation seems to match the Latin text fairly well.) Now here's the interesting part:  After the Romans had their shields up to protect against arrows and javelins, Perseus orders some of his men to attack and others to "hurl weapons from a distance."  The infinitive translated "hurl" is ingerere, and one of its meanings is "to throw into or upon a place," perhaps suggesting concentrated fire into or upon the packed Roman formation.  The word "weapons" is tela, from telum, literally "missile weapon"; the
cestrosphendone is subsequently described as a teli, a form of telum.  It would seem that other tela were brought into play after the initial attacks by bow and javelin.

         

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by DuckofDeath on Jul 16th, 2006 at 3:36am
Another cogitation:

funda media duo scutalia imparia habebat

media can be taken as an ablative form, i.e., "from [its] middle," so the phrase can be translated word for word as

"[the] sling from [its] middle two cords unequal had."

In other words, the "middle of the sling" is the pouch or cradle of the sling, or something that would correspond to the pouch or cradle, and the two cords--equal on a conventional sling--are unequal on the cestrosphendone.  

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by siguy on Jul 16th, 2006 at 7:17pm
that's really interesting

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Hondero on Jul 17th, 2006 at 2:29am
Duckof Death, good try with Latin,  but the stuff  remains problematic for me.  I´ve seen differents translations of the same phrases and perhaps one have to use the logic besides the  translations.  The famous "funda media duo scutalia imparia habebat" is translated literally for some authors so: "The sling had in the middle two different thongs"  and the admitted meaning is: "The sling had in the pouch two different thongs". If the author wanted to say that the cords of the sling were of differente length It  had merely said : "Funda duo scutalia imparia habebat". But he say that the "scutalia" were in the middle of the sling, and this  suggest that he wanted to specify something different. Some authors think that there were two little thongs in the pouch to fasten the dart and others that the word "scutalia" means in general " piece of leather" and that it was used to name the pouch too. So, the latin text could mean: "The sling had two different pouches in the middle".  
Well, it´s not easy to guess the truth...

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by siguy on Jul 17th, 2006 at 12:18pm
well i will be taking latin when school starts back up here so maybe i will be of more help then.  or perhaps i can get my tacher to take a stab at it

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by DuckofDeath on Jul 20th, 2006 at 2:05pm

wrote on Jul 17th, 2006 at 12:18pm:
well i will be taking latin when school starts back up here so maybe i will be of more help then.  or perhaps i can get my tacher to take a stab at it


Thanks, and let us know what you find out.

Are there any Greek scholars out there?  According to the English translations I've read of Polybius and Livy, Livy seems to omit and distort what was recorded in Polybius' earlier account.  Polybius has the fins "in the middle" of the dart or shaft, whereas Livy leaves out any reference to the "middle" of the dart or shaft.  Polybius has the shaft being inserted into the head of the weapon, specifying that the shank and point of the head were of equal length.  Livy simply has the point being inserted into the shaft, pilum-style.

My point is that if Livy or Livy's source omitted and distorted what is found in Polybius' account, the ambiguity surrounding the funda media business might be the result of such a distortion.  So if there are any Greek scholars out there, let us know what you find out too.      

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Lionheart on Jul 21st, 2006 at 8:50am
I've done Greek GCSE, so I could take a stab, but don't expect great things.

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by DuckofDeath on Jul 22nd, 2006 at 2:50am

wrote on Jul 21st, 2006 at 8:50am:
I've done Greek GCSE, so I could take a stab, but don't expect great things.


Thanks.  By the way, what is GCSE?  I'm not familiar with the acronym.

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Lionheart on Jul 22nd, 2006 at 12:31pm
Ah sorry it stands for General Certificate of Secondary Education in the UK.  Its the exams  all 16 year olds tkae in subjects of their choice.

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Amras on Jul 25th, 2006 at 11:32am
Here are my cetros I made a wile back.
http://img467.imageshack.us/img467/5530/picture095ga3.jpg
http://img54.imageshack.us/img54/9253/picture096rl2.jpg
I have found that the first one keeps the dart more stable than the second one. Maby my dart is to light but it is pretty hevy.
The dart  is just a wooden dowle with feathers and a very sharp point made of pipe. I put copper wire on the front to make it very front hevy.
I love this weapon. I can throw this dart 60 yard easily.I could probably throw it farther but I dont want to loose it(already lost one).

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by siguy on Jul 25th, 2006 at 1:07pm
that is a really nice kestros, and it sounds like that is the first successful model of a kestros to date.  does it work consistently, or do you have frequent problems?

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Amras on Jul 25th, 2006 at 1:23pm
I rarely have problems with it. You cant wind up because the cords would get tangled but the wind up is not nesecery.
I have not tried target shooting yet but I will soon. It seems decently accurate, even at 60 yards. I need to make more darts to see how consistant it is.
Wile I use this weapon I think of how suprized a chaging army would be to see deadly darts being thrown by a sling.
I wish I knew how many foot pounds one of the hevy darts would have being thrown by a cestro.

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Dale on Jul 25th, 2006 at 1:53pm
Sorry, but I believe that Hondero has built several successful kestrosphendonei (...donai? How do you form the plural in Greek?)  See, for instance, reply #162 in this topic.

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Amras on Jul 25th, 2006 at 1:56pm
I knew I was not the first. I read that before. He made some nice darts.

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by siguy on Jul 25th, 2006 at 2:21pm
ah yes i forgot about hondero.   :-[
most of the people that tried to build a kestros seemed to have troubles though, and i sometimes have trouble keeping it all straight.

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Dale on Jul 25th, 2006 at 2:34pm
Oops, I was actually replying to Siguy, but your latest post got in there before me, Amras...

The plural would be "kestrosphendonai", I think.  Hondero has built several kestrosphendonai.  I have built but one kestrosphendone, and it wasn't the (reconstructed) traditional design, it was Jurek's design.  See replies #12, #15 and #39 for detail illustrations on how to load Jurek's kestros.  It works well, but it is slow to load.

(edit)  ACK!  Siguy, I am really slow today ... your latest post also got there before this, my reply to Amras...  oh well.

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by siguy on Jul 25th, 2006 at 2:39pm
that's okay dale. better late than never! ( man that saying is so old i hate to even think it ).  

i didn't see that design before, thanks for bringing it up for me to see.

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by lobohunter on Jul 26th, 2006 at 1:55pm
yeah if you look though this thead you will find most of us have made a cesti's at one time or another

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Amras on Jul 27th, 2006 at 4:30pm
Check this out.
http://www.eriding.net/media/photos/history/romans/artefacts/051221_pelliott_mp_his_ww2_064.jpg
It is labled "Throwing Dart"
This is a Roman site and I know the Cestro was inventede by Greeks to kill Romans but do you think posibly this(or the original it was modled after, if it is modled after a true artifact) would have been ment to be thrown with a cestro. Maybe the Romans saw how effective it was wile fighting the Greeks and desided to arm their own soldiers with it. Or maybe soldiers who were originally Greek used it in battle.
I dont know anything about the dart shown. It might be just thought up with no history in mind.

Did the Romans use hand thrown darts?

What do you think?

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by siguy on Jul 27th, 2006 at 6:06pm
that's a pretty feirce looking dart.  that would make a nice spear or harpoon tip if it was bigger

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by DuckofDeath on Jul 28th, 2006 at 3:27am

wrote on Jul 27th, 2006 at 4:30pm:
Did the Romans use hand thrown darts?


Yes they did, and the darts were known as plumbatae.  Tests have been made with reconstructed plumbatae; the farthest throws were about 70 yards, the darts gripped by the tail and thrown underhand.  See "Testing Plumbatae" by John Eagle in Roman Military Equipment: the Sources of Evidence  , BAR International Series 476, Oxford, 1989.

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Amras on Jul 28th, 2006 at 9:19am
Ok that would explain the dart.
Thanks

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Lathron on Sep 3rd, 2006 at 2:42pm
simplest kestros ever: take your dart, tie a reasonably thin string around the end about as long as your favorite sling folded, whirl it around and let it loose altogether. maybe not the most practical but at least you will see if your dart is properly made and flies well

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by lobohunter on Sep 5th, 2006 at 8:10pm
has any one tried a plumbatae in a ordinsry sling I am betting

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by DuckofDeath on Sep 26th, 2006 at 1:00am
ttt

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by siguy on Sep 26th, 2006 at 4:22pm
i can't say i have ever tried a "plumb bob" in my sling.  to tell you the truth, i have never even held a real one.  the closest i have ever come is when i tied a string to the eye in an eyescrew and used the point as the point.

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by curious_aardvark on Sep 30th, 2006 at 1:14pm

Quote:
This is a Roman site and I know the Cestro was inventede by Greeks to kill Romans


Depends entirely on what era romans you're talking about. The holy roman empire was greek in culture and language and location as well I think.

So without wading through 24 pages of posts - is there a reproduction cetrosp..etc rig in there that someone's made and used ?

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Willeke on Sep 30th, 2006 at 4:21pm
At least 3, one this thread, one in an other and I forgot where the third was mentioned.  
So it will be nearer 50 pages if you are going to read  ;D

But use the search funtion and you might be able to find it a bit faster.
But of course you will miss a lot of fun that way.

Willeke

(PS, the first page of this thread is holding much of the good stuff so start there.)  ;)

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by curious_aardvark on Oct 2nd, 2006 at 2:55pm
lol I think you sort of missed the point willeke, I don't want to wade through all fifty pages and typing in cestrospondon in the search engine brings up pretty much all of them :-)

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Willeke on Oct 2nd, 2006 at 4:07pm
C_A
You missed my point  ;)
Just start reading at page one of this thread.
(From the look of it you could consentrate on the posts with pictures and the first few long ones right after them. Just scan over the rest of the posts, but many of them are not worth much.

Willeke

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by DuckofDeath on Nov 24th, 2006 at 10:09pm
I recall reading somewhere where Bertrand's recreation of the cestrosphendone had a range of 70 meters. How does that compare with the most recent distances attained by those on this thread who have made cestrosphendones?  Also, has anyone recorded their casts on video?

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by DuckofDeath on Jan 20th, 2007 at 4:03pm
ttt

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by DuckofDeath on Apr 16th, 2007 at 1:57am
ttt

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by P.W._Smith on Apr 16th, 2007 at 11:27am
Has anyone ever thought that the cestrophendon was two chords tied together at the release knot and at the finger loop??? It has two strings that are looped over the front and back of the "dart" and then is released like a regular sling... I've tried this, and it works quite well...I've gotten 230 yd distances with it using the greek underhand style...
Derek

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by DuckofDeath on Apr 19th, 2007 at 4:11am

P.W._Smith wrote on Apr 16th, 2007 at 11:27am:
Has anyone ever thought that the cestrophendon was two chords tied together at the release knot and at the finger loop??? It has two strings that are looped over the front and back of the "dart" and then is released like a regular sling... I've tried this, and it works quite well...I've gotten 230 yd distances with it using the greek underhand style...
Derek


Well, that's about a 300% increase over Bertrand's published distance.  Do you have photos or sketches of the rig and dart that you could post?

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Dale on Apr 19th, 2007 at 3:54pm
P.W._Smith,

Your idea reminds me of something Yurek described, in reply #41 in this topic.  Here is a copy of his drawing; is this similar to your idea?

I do not know if he ever made one of these, but two other people did and reported that the design works.  Three people, now, if yours is the same idea.  230 yards is very respectable!

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Thomas on Apr 19th, 2007 at 7:00pm
Nearly 2-1/2 football fields--hmmmm!

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by P.W._Smith on Apr 20th, 2007 at 3:04pm
Yurek's drawing is close, but not quite...for the loop near the end of the arrow, it is not a knot, but a piece of string that is just looped around the end of the arrow...and the sling I use is a lot larger...I use an over hand sort of release...
Derek

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Dale on Apr 20th, 2007 at 5:51pm
OK, I went  back and read your description again.  Is yours more like this picture?  Maybe with the cords longer in relation to the length of the dart?
cestros2.jpg (6 KB | )

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by DuckofDeath on Apr 21st, 2007 at 12:36am

P.W._Smith wrote on Apr 20th, 2007 at 3:04pm:
...I use an over hand sort of release...


Didn't you say in your earlier post that you slung underhand?

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by P.W._Smith on Apr 23rd, 2007 at 10:46am
I use underhand for distance, and overhand for accuracy... ;D...That drawing is exactly right!!!
Good job!
Derek

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by curious_aardvark on Apr 23rd, 2007 at 10:56am
do you put small grooves in the darts to stop the string from sliding along the shaft ?
Or possibly the reverse and have a couple of slightly larger areas (could be done wit tape) and the string inbetween.

Or does it just not slide. ?

Love to see video of it in action :-)

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by P.W._Smith on Apr 24th, 2007 at 10:48am
yeah...I put small grooves across the shaft in order to hold in the string...
;)...
Derek

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by curious_aardvark on Apr 24th, 2007 at 12:39pm
so how long are the darts ?

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Dale on Apr 24th, 2007 at 2:59pm
I think he's pulling your leg, I do not believe you would need grooves (but the casting style would need to be fairly smooth).

On a similar note, WhipArtist made a sling of stainless steel wire, and made some special glandes for use with it that had two grooves.  There's a picture around here somewhere ... yeah, here.


Oh, how long were the kestros, that were cast by a kestrosphendone?  For that we go all the way back to the first post in this topic, where Hondero quoted a translation of Livius, wherein Livius says the kestros had an iron head of two palms length (about 15 cm) and a wooden shaft of 9 inches length (23 cm).  So the overall length of the kestros would be about 32 cm (about 12 1/2 inches).  In reply #25, Hondero has a photograph of a kestros he made to Livius' specifications, and the kestrosphendone to throw it with.

(Do I have my Greek right?  The kestrosphendone (κεστροσφενδονι)* was the arrow-thrower, the kestros (κεστρος) was the arrow?)

Polybius has a somewhat different description, recorded in the Wikipedia article on slings.  He describes a kestros as being two cubits overall (about 90 cm or 36 inches), consisting of an iron point and tube, with a wooden shaft of 2 spans (one cubit) fitted into the tube.  The shaft was fletched, the fins being of thin strips of fir wood.  So this version is longer, but still about half iron and half wood.

It is quite possible that the two historians saw different variations on the idea.  After all, why would slingers back then, be different from us?  We are constantly playing with new ideas!


Side note: I said, once, that the old systems of measure were based on the anatomy of a living man (usually the local ruler).  So when the merchants cried "Long live the King!" -- they meant it!  Changing Kings meant changing all their measures...  ;D

* EDIT, later: DuckOfDeath informs me that the correct Greek spelling is not what is above, but this: κεστροσφενδονη.  The final vowel is eta, not iota.

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Dale on Apr 24th, 2007 at 4:20pm
Hey, P.W._Smith!  Don't bother with my drawing any more, just go look at Dan Bollinger's photograph!  Dan also has some comments on its use, a bit further down that page (reply #85).

Curious_Aardvark,
I ask your forgiveness, for lambasting you for not reading everything.  I just found that photograph a couple of minutes ago... in this very topic!  Looks like I've been casting stones without checking to make sure I am without sin...  :-[

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by curious_aardvark on Apr 25th, 2007 at 8:20am
Okay, whatever - I'm generally feeling basted this morning (with or without the lamb) - so one more won't make any difference :-)
You ever get feeling the world just doesn't appreciate your particular genius ?
(I must be a genius - my clients keep telling me I am and I always believe everything I'm told ;-)

Why don't you think there would be grooves ? The string could easily slip, while resting in the loop or during the windup. In the photo both the flight and the head of the dart are stopping the string from sliding.

When I was a kid we used to throw spears with string wrapped round a groove in the tail to stop the string sliding. It wasn't a totally pointless question :-)

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Dravonk on Apr 25th, 2007 at 11:15am

Curious Aardvark wrote on Apr 25th, 2007 at 8:20am:
Why don't you think there would be grooves ? The string could easily slip, while resting in the loop or during the windup. In the photo both the flight and the head of the dart are stopping the string from sliding.

That depends on the design. For the sling that has a split pouch for the tail and a leather pouch for the point I do not think grooves are necessary. But I start to think that Yurek's Cestrophendon with the nail might be closer to the historic original. (Because they explicitly mentioned two cords of different length). For the knot grooves might help.

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Dale on Apr 25th, 2007 at 12:58pm
Curious_Aardvark,

I've heard of those string-and-spear things also.  Aren't they called French arrows?  Or Swiss arrows, or Dutch arrows, or Yorkshire arrows, or ....

As for why I don't think grooves are needed ... well, basically it's because you asked P.W._Smith if grooves were needed, and he said
Quote:
yeah...I put small grooves across the shaft in order to hold in the string...
;)

I interpreted the smiley face as indicating "tongue-in-cheek", so he really was saying "no."

Of course, if I took P.W.'s meaning to be something different than what he intended, then grooves would of course be needed.
:-[
C_A, stop laughing at me ...

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Dale on Apr 25th, 2007 at 1:09pm
Dravonk,

I made a Yurek-style κεστροσφενδονη and the dart needed no groove; the cord attaches to the dart at its center of gravity and so does not slide (no unbalanced forces).

Hondero's reconstructions (#1 and #2) of the ancient design both have the appearance of a sling with unequal cords, if you ignore the small "split pouch" in the longer cord.  Were it put to a vote, I would favor this as the most-correct reconstruction.

Dan Bollinger's reconstruction also has unequal cords; as Dan noted, the cord holding the head has to be shorter, or the dart falls out prematurely (reply #85 in this topic).

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by curious_aardvark on Apr 25th, 2007 at 2:41pm
no idea what it was called - we generally used a sapling about 4-5 foot. Cut notches and inserted cardboard or plastic flights in one end. whittled the other end to a point and made a slight groove just after the top of the flight. The string had a knot in the end. You lay the string round the groove, hooking the long end over the knot and holding it taut - this gives a really good grip that relesase as soon as the knot is forward of the hand holding the string. You hold the spear towards the head with the string taut and when you throw it you bring the string forward as fast as you can. Used to go a helluva long way further than you could throw by hand.
I suppose it's a sort of modified atlatl. But the spear had no need to flex.

Hey maybe he didn't have grooves. I thought the wink meant I'd guessed correctly lol

Life is a constant wonder :-)

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by P.W._Smith on Apr 26th, 2007 at 10:41am
Hey Dale...I'm not pulling your leg!!! you don't have to use notches if you don't want to...I personally use them because it's just easier for me to ensure a consistent release...
Derek

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by curious_aardvark on Apr 26th, 2007 at 11:38am
Ah hem - nah de na de nah nah :-)

lmao

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Dale on Apr 26th, 2007 at 4:19pm
You will notice that P.W. said you could either have notches, or not ... SO THERE!

And nevermind that he said it works better WITH.  ;)

The instructions I've seen for French arrows all specified shorter than three feet for the arrows, and either a groove around the shaft or a notch cut in the shaft.  I tried making one of those once and I could not get it to work.  Your spears of four to five feet length, make a lot more sense to me.  Atlatls are used with spears of five to six feet length; folks have had thousands of years to play around and figure out what length works best.

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by DuckofDeath on Apr 29th, 2007 at 3:13am

Dale wrote on Apr 24th, 2007 at 2:59pm:
(Do I have my Greek right?  The kestrosphendone (κεστροσφενδονι) was the arrow-thrower, the kestros (κεστρος) was the arrow?)

Polybius has a somewhat different description, recorded in the Wikipedia article on slings.  He describes a kestros as being two cubits overall (about 90 cm or 36 inches), consisting of an iron point and tube, with a wooden shaft of 2 spans (one cubit) fitted into the tube.


In the Greek spelling, I believe the final iota should actually be an eta.  The "two cubit" business is a mistranslation; I read a commentary on the text which pointed out that the translator had made "nonsense" of the description by translating the Greek word for "palm" as "cubit."  

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Dale on Apr 29th, 2007 at 2:08pm
Thank you for the spelling correction, DuckOfDeath!

Now about measures: A cubit is basically fingertip-to-elbow, and a span is a half-cubit (also the measure from pinky-tip to thumb-tip when the hand is stretched as wide as possible).  What is a palm?  The width of the hand, not counting the thumb?

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by DuckofDeath on Apr 30th, 2007 at 3:22am
The palm is equal to four digits or fingerbreadths; there are six palms to the cubit.

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Dale on Apr 30th, 2007 at 8:03pm
OK, so if a cubit is about 18 inches, then a span (half-cubit) is 9 inches, and a palm (a third of a span) is 3 inches.

This actually makes Polybius's description the same as Livy's description.  The same length for the wood (a span) and the iron head is 2 palms, not 2 cubits.  I guess the Wikipedia article needs fixing: they quoted the wrong translator.

And if you go all the way back to the beginning of this topic, Hondero quoted somebody that translated it right.  The dart is about 15 inches overall, and its length is about 2/3 wood and 1/3 iron.  This matches Bertrand's sketch (for which DuckOfDeath provided a citation: Alexandre Bertrand, "Le Kestre ou Kestrosphendone," Revue Archeologique, Vol. 27, 1874, pp. 73-78 and pl. II).  Hondero's reconstruction looks closer to half and half.

Whew.  Glad we finally got those measures straightened out.  Though Hondero had it right, from the start...

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by DuckofDeath on May 6th, 2007 at 12:17am

Dale wrote on Apr 30th, 2007 at 8:03pm:
The dart is about 15 inches overall, and its length is about 2/3 wood and 1/3 iron.  


Actually, the illustration appears to be 3/5 wood and 2/5 iron, which would correspond to a 3 palm shaft attached to a 2 palm head.  The translation in Hondero's first post states that the shaft was "fastened to" the head.  I believe I've seen other translations, though, where half the two-palm head was a tube or socket into which the shaft was inserted, so if a palm length of shaft was inserted into the socket, the dart would be a foot long, half wood, half iron.

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by DuckofDeath on Jun 19th, 2007 at 1:30am
Having viewed this Project Goliath article

http://www.slinging.org/wiki/index.php?title=Cestrosphendon

I was just wondering if any performance data are available for that configuration of the weapon?

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by curious_aardvark on Jun 22nd, 2007 at 5:53am
whatever happened to the guy who used to do those illustrations ?
He seemed to drop out about a year ago.
Shame, they are very good.

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by MammotHunter on Jun 28th, 2007 at 6:35pm
Anyone ever know if someone on the boards got one of these things working? I ask because I've been away for a while. been busy with school and work and personal life and all that noise. You all know what I mean, I'm sure. I know there was talk some time ago about making one of these things, so I don't know if anyone had any success with them in my absence. From what I've read of this thread, it doesn;t look like it. So, I'm making one, now. I'll let you all know how it turns out, if, as my girlfriend fears, I don't kill myself first in the process. She has so little faith in me...

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Hondero on Jul 23rd, 2007 at 1:30pm
Hi all, lot of time without writing here. I´m glad to see this subjet is alive, so I come back to it too. Have made a new reconstruction of the cestros most exact possible by following the texts of Livius and Polibius. I agree with you, DuckofDead and Dale about the interpreattion of the messures, that are more or less mine, taken from Daremberg et Saglio. The cestros had to be similar to the one of the picture. The position of the three wooden fins according Polibius is in the center of the shaft. Livius does not say anything about. This disposition is not efficient to stabilize the dart and would have to be due to the design of the sling and the way to throw. The dart would oscillate a lot, unless it left the sling very well oriented, and for that its position in the pouch must have very little inclination respect the cords. The free end behind the fins would be by reasons for attachment to the sling. All this talk into the guess of how was the sling and the way to throw, that I,ve describe dpreviously in this thread. I havn´t tried this cestros yet. Others I´ve made before were more aerodynamics.



Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Hondero on Jul 23rd, 2007 at 1:49pm
:( My post don´t match the forum window. Have to do anything?

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by english on Jul 23rd, 2007 at 2:00pm
That's a beautiful piece of ammunition.  It would be nice to see Livius vindicated - I hope it works well.

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Hondero on Jul 27th, 2007 at 8:34am

wrote on Jul 23rd, 2007 at 2:00pm:
That's a beautiful piece of ammunition.  It would be nice to see Livius vindicated - I hope it works well.


Thanks english, yesterday I´ve tried it and it really works! At first the dart oscillate a little but soon it takes a straight flight. The range and accuracy is good, almost like a stone.

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by lobohunter on Jul 29th, 2007 at 3:16pm
nice work Hondero.
hmmm wonder how that would be with a nice hunting broad head on it

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by DuckofDeath on Aug 1st, 2007 at 1:26pm

Hondero wrote on Jul 27th, 2007 at 8:34am:
Thanks english, yesterday I´ve tried it and it really works! At first the dart oscillate a little but soon it takes a straight flight. The range and accuracy is good, almost like a stone.


So what kind of sling are you using and what kind of ranges are you attaining?    

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by SnapCut on Aug 12th, 2007 at 11:17am

Hondero wrote on Jun 15th, 2006 at 4:04pm:
Finally I´ve got the Arms &Armour journal with the article on cestros by G. M. Hollenback :). Based only on the Polibius text, he present a new hypothesis of the cestros sling, since on the dart there are almost no doubts and both authors, Livy and Polibius agree in its description. Acording to Hollenback, the sling could be a simple thong that was fitted below the fins of the dart, as it is seen in the photo. There is also  a loop or band so that the shaft end passes through it and the dart don´t slip out during the whirl (this is common in all reconstructions since it is the only reason to place the fins in the middle of the shaft, sacrificing the stability of the flight).
Although I had tried without success this solution some years ago, I´ve made a new cestros with the proper measurements and with the Hollenback fins special shape, and tried it again. Unfortunately, the results were deficient one more time. Sometimes the  design works and others not, that is to say, it is quite uncontrollable since the dart has tendency to clog between the cords or to release erratically due to the strong friction of the retention cord on the fin. This causes that the design of the fin is very critic, needing a very exact curvature, and that the material of the thong and the polish of the fin influences much in the success of the release. In addition, the design works well only for a  mid power, but throwing with high power the dart is clogged between the cords or leaves erratic. Another disadvantage is that it works only underhand, and the author notices it. This last fact should have been enough for the author to realize that the design is erroneous, since a expensive missile as the cestros was not only to be used  like massive rain of projectiles, that is for which serves the underhand style. On the other hand the Hollenback interpretation of Polibius text is a little forced so that it agrees with his design. I think that if Polibius had wanted to describe this design, he had done it in a different way as how he did it ::).
I think I find unlikely that the Greeks used this design. They were excellent  slingers and very efficient constructors of weapons.



Sorry if I repeat something that might already have been said but I only have time to skim now. In the photo the cord is wraped around the dart pretty good but what if it only and just looped over the first fin?

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Hondero on Aug 13th, 2007 at 2:02pm

lobohunter wrote on Jul 29th, 2007 at 3:16pm:
nice work Hondero.
hmmm wonder how that would be with a nice hunting broad head on it


Terrible, sure  :)

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Hondero on Aug 13th, 2007 at 2:16pm

DuckofDeath wrote on Aug 1st, 2007 at 1:26pm:

Hondero wrote on Jul 27th, 2007 at 8:34am:
Thanks english, yesterday I´ve tried it and it really works! At first the dart oscillate a little but soon it takes a straight flight. The range and accuracy is good, almost like a stone.


So what kind of sling are you using and what kind of ranges are you attaining?    



The sling is that of  
http://slinging.org/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1074713443/150

My range with the cestros is about 100 or 120 meters, but with a stone I can´t attaing much more distance. My shoulder don´t work very well  :(

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Hondero on Aug 13th, 2007 at 2:24pm
[quote author=SnapCut link=1074713443/270#271 date=1186931877
Sorry if I repeat something that might already have been said but I only have time to skim now. In the photo the cord is wraped around the dart pretty good but what if it only and just looped over the first fin?


I think the dart would slip if looped only over a fin.

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by DuckofDeath on Oct 19th, 2007 at 2:14am
ttt

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Hondero on Oct 22nd, 2007 at 4:38pm
I´ve put a short video in you tube. Don´know if it can be seen well, I have problems with you tube and my camera is very simple. Stoping the pictures at the right moment it can be seen the dart well oriented ahead.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hp5GLqziCRk

Saludos a todos,
Hondero

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by axon50 on Oct 23rd, 2007 at 12:44am
very interesting....... an amazingly anoying wep for the oponent i imagine....... cool

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by curious_aardvark on Oct 23rd, 2007 at 2:27pm
now that's interesting, also good little video clip. All the info in the post suggests you rest the dart between two points but your video shows it hanging just from the end.  So how's it work ?

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Hondero on Oct 23rd, 2007 at 5:15pm

Curious Aardvark wrote on Oct 23rd, 2007 at 2:27pm:
now that's interesting, also good little video clip. All the info in the post suggests you rest the dart between two points but your video shows it hanging just from the end.  So how's it work ?



The dart is placed between the little pouch and the little loop for the tail, but really the weight rest mainly on the pouch, and the position is almost vertical or very little inclined, so that the cords not entangle. At the release, the point slip on the pouch and the dart goes out ahead.

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by DuckofDeath on Nov 8th, 2007 at 1:44am

Hondero wrote on Oct 22nd, 2007 at 4:38pm:
I´ve put a short video in you tube. Don´know if it can be seen well, I have problems with you tube and my camera is very simple. Stoping the pictures at the right moment it can be seen the dart well oriented ahead.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hp5GLqziCRk

Saludos a todos,
Hondero


Congrats on what as far as I know is the first video of a cestrosphendone in action. It looked like the dart laterally fishtailed a bit before disappearing from view. Do you get consistent sticks when you cast?    

Title: Re: Cestrosphendon
Post by Hondero on Nov 10th, 2007 at 1:58pm
[quote author=DuckofDeath link=1074713443/270#280 date=1194504259
Congrats on what as far as I know is the first video of a cestrosphendone in action. It looked like the dart laterally fishtailed a bit before disappearing from view. Do you get consistent sticks when you cast?    [/quote]



The cast in the video was not good, really. It was the first time I came back to the cestros after a lot of time and the dart was not well made. I promise better videos soon.
At present I have some time to dedicate to the subject and my aim is to definitively unravel the secrets that still remains on the cestros. Although the design I´ve sown in the thread works very well, there are others ways to throw the dart that I´ll show and comment here, specially the few ones that have been published in archaeological magazines. Besides, the texts of Livius and Plybius still remains partly enigmatic and requires to retake their analysis reconsidering the key words and their meaning in other similar texts.
In addition to this “linguistic” investigation will be necessary an approach by others ways. One is the logical and practical sense, that implies a good experience and knowledge of the sling, that sometimes lacks in the published works and translations of the classic texts. I´ve read funny things like throwing the cestros spinning the sling counterclockwise in vertical style. This is so ineffective and foolish as to do it in horizontal style. Other funny anecdote comes from Walbank, F.W. in his “Comentary on Polibius” (1979), where he say that the romans also used the cestros and point out as a proof of it a text of Dionisius of Halicarnaso describing the romans throwing “caltrops” with the sling. Walbank mixed up both missiles only by the simple fact that they are iron made and throwed by a sling. It´s necessary then to be critical with authors and translators, who sometimes are not trustworthy.
Other approach to the cestros, and the main of all, is experimental archaeology, namely to try all possible designs and ways of throwing. The best of all them is very possible that was the one used in antiquity. Then will be the moment for returning to the classic texts and see if the design match with them.
The point from we start the approach is that we know how was the dart but there are still some confusion about the sling to throw it. To find the solution is a matter of imagination and tests, the classic trial and error method.
Next post will be on the different designs and ways to throw the cestros

Title: Re: Cestrosphendone
Post by Hondero on Nov 18th, 2007 at 3:07pm
DYNAMICS OF THE CESTROS- NOTES

Although three centuries previous to Roman plumbata, the cestros is similar to it as much in their aspect as in their dynamics. The difference is the lack of the characteristic weight of lead over the iron of the point, although the cestros point is heavier, making the double function of point and weight. The weight of both darts had to be very similar for the same length, around 120 gr. Regarding the length, the cestros corresponds to the short type of plumbata (they were from 30 cm). In fact, the cestros can be sent by hand as a plumbata and a short plumbata can be sent with sling like a cestros. The position of the centre of gravity is then essential in the design of the cestros, very next to the point, given its form of impulsion. In the arrows or crossbow bolts the impulsion is made by push of the cord of the bow on the end of the shaft, and for it is advisablea a position of the centre of gravity next to the midpoint of the arrow. In the cestros the impulsion is made by inertia in the spinning, releasing the point that leans in the pouch and that then get all the weight of the dart, and for that reason it is essential that the centre of gravity is there, near the point, to avoid the dart comes out revolving. On the other hand, the stabilizing action of the fins is greater if this centre of gravity is distant of the centre of the dart, which is near the fins. Although there are different working designs of the sling to cast the cestros, and the original macedonic one is not known at the moment, all of them work with the center of gravity of the dart next to the point.
Another important aspect is the way to revolve the sling, that is a little different for the cestros. A sling loaded with a stone can revolve anyway provided it accelerates the projectile in the launching, but a dart must in addition obtain a good direction at the moment of the cast, because if not it would make oscillations and lose much energy to become stabilized. For that reason it is fundamental an ample spinning, being conscious of the correct position of the dart when throwing. Any style can be worth if we considers that point and forgot our habitual style of casting a stone. Many attempts with the cestros fail for that reason and they are attributed to the design of the sling or the dart.
Very important also it is to consider the separation of the sling cords. According to the design, they can be very separated, as in classic design of Mr. Bertrand who appears in this thread, in which there is a great risk to be entangled, reason why the spins must be limited to one, and the most advisable style is underhand with vertical spinning. In the design I use, that is an improvement of the Betrand´s one, the cords are near, like in a traditional sling, and the spinning can be made with any style and several times, although it is advisable not more than two times. I habitually throw overhand with horizontal spinning. Other working designs hold the dart not between the two pouches (escutalia) typical of Bertrand design but by the fins, and perhaps for this reason they are of wood and "firmly implanted" in the shaft. In they, the cords of the sling are also quite together and any style of launching is facilitated.
But this stuff of the different designs will be approached in the next post. (I hope my English supported on Babelfish and dictionary will be intelligible  ::))

Title: Re: Cestrosphendone
Post by Hondero on Dec 6th, 2007 at 2:24pm



DIFFERENT WAYS TO THROW THE CESTROS.

I have evaluated the different designs of the sling to throw the cestros after having tested them thoroughly.  

Design number 1 is the typical of Bertrand, already discussed in the thread. It does not work well and its main defect is that the cords are entangled. It either does not solve the problem of puncture of the point into the pouch when throwing, reason why the dart leaves turning  if the opportune solutions are not adopted. I give it a score of 4 on 10. With enough certainty it was not the original Macedonian design.

Design 2 is an improvement of ds. 1 that avoids the problem of the tangle of the cords and the puncture  in the pouch, and was already described in detail in the thread. I give it a score of 7.

Design 3 consists of a conventional sling, placing the dart of transversal way in the pouch. The dart is well directed when throwed but leaves revolving around its axe, what increases the air drag and reduces the range. I give it a score of 4.

Design 4 was already seen in the thread and although the dart leaves out  well oriented, the cords are entangled and it is troublesome the positioning of the dart in the sling. With complete certainty it was not the design of the Macedonians, and I regret it has spread by Internet due to the splendid drawing of Johnny. I´m sorry Yurek and Johnny, my friends, but like good slingers we are we must be responsible for the diffusion of our interpretations. I hope that Johnny makes an equal splendid drawing when I finally discover the true Macedonian design and he changes it in WIKIPEDIA, ;D .

Design 5 also has been seen in the thread, and it does not work either too much well, being very conditioned by the geometry of the wings, reason why I think it was not the Macedonian  design, also because is based on a somehow mistaken interpretation of classic texts. Nevertheless it has the newness to locate the point of attachment of the dart over the fins, that as we’ll see  it  approaches the true solution. I give it a score of 6 points.

Design 6 is based on my lasso-sling and is the best working in spite of its simplicity, being able to send the dart with any style of spinning. I give it a score of 8, although with complete certainty was not the Macedonian design. What it is strange to me is that they did not use it being  so simple and effective.

I am working in what I think is the original Macedonian design, but before describing it I’ve to verify that it works better than any other and that it matches the texts, been necessary perhaps to make a new reading and interpretation of them.

Title: Re: Cestrosphendone
Post by Mordechaj on Dec 6th, 2007 at 4:34pm
nice to see that you are still dedicated ot this project :)

i'm not slinging for some time now*, but i'm a passionate lurker, and i'm allways happy when "we" find out something new, or just refine old stuff.

don't take too long to present us your latest design please :P


*waiting for summer, most probably.

Title: Re: Cestrosphendone
Post by DuckofDeath on Dec 7th, 2007 at 4:05pm
Hondero,

Nice work on the illustrations!

I have a comment, though, on the Bertrand representation. When I first came across Bertrand's illustration somewhere, I could have sworn that the cradle looked like a long rigid strap with the front end hinged like a tab that could be flexed upward and braced against the point of the dart. The back end had two lines attached that rose and joined into a single line like an upside down "Y"; the back end of the dart fit between the two lines.      

Title: Re: Cestrosphendone
Post by Hondero on Dec 7th, 2007 at 5:44pm

DuckofDeath wrote on Dec 7th, 2007 at 4:05pm:
Hondero,

Nice work on the illustrations!

I have a comment, though, on the Bertrand representation. When I first came across Bertrand's illustration somewhere, I could have sworn that the cradle looked like a long rigid strap with the front end hinged like a tab that could be flexed upward and braced against the point of the dart. The back end had two lines attached that rose and joined into a single line like an upside down "Y"; the back end of the dart fit between the two lines.      



Yes, you are right, but i think both designs are equivalents. I´ll try to bring here Bertrand drawing

Title: Re: Cestrosphendone
Post by Hondero on Dec 8th, 2007 at 3:58am
Here is Bertrand drawing detail of the dart placement. The retention cord is divided in two below the fins, really, and between both passes the tail,  which is equivalent to the design I have tried, with the little loop. I believe that the pouch is reduced to the small leather piece under the point, and what it is seen next it is the retention cord that is tensed by the weight of the dart. What it is not clear, and perhaps Bertrand not even wanted to draw it clearly, is the connection of the small pouch with the retention cord. It seems that pouch is a small rectangle and the cord was connected only to one of the corners. May be he obviate to complete the drawing to not complicate it. About the little rectangular pouch that seems to be almost rigid and a little bending in the middle, may be he is suggesting a metallic pouch or something similar to avoid the puncture of the point.



Title: Re: Cestrosphendone
Post by DuckofDeath on Dec 9th, 2007 at 1:44am

Hondero wrote on Dec 8th, 2007 at 3:58am:
It seems that pouch is a small rectangle and the cord was connected only to one of the corners.


Although it kind of looks like that, wouldn't that be a rather unstable arrangement? When I took a second look long ago, the thought occurred to me that what looks like a taut cord attached to one corner of the pouch is actually the edge of an elongated rigid cradle on which the dart rests, and what looks like the back edge of the pouch is actually a crease where the hinged front of the cradle is bent up to take the point of the dart. You can't see the other side of the cradle or where the the two rear cords attach to the back end of the cradle because the dart is in the way. My two cent's worth...      

Title: Re: Cestrosphendone
Post by Hondero on Dec 9th, 2007 at 3:29am

DuckofDeath wrote on Dec 9th, 2007 at 1:44am:
... an elongated rigid cradle on which the dart rests, and what looks like the back edge of the pouch is actually a crease where the hinged front of the cradle is bent up to take the point of the dart. You can't see the other side of the cradle or where the the two rear cords attach to the back end of the cradle because the dart is in the way. My two cent's worth...      




This is of course the other possibility, though the elongated rigid cradle would be not necessary for the dart to rest because it leans by the point and the two fins of the picture. Besides, the third fin, that cannot be seen, would be over the cradle making the dart unstable. Really the Bertrand´s drawing is confusing and seems to be made for suggesting things but no to detail them. If you have read the text of his article, you´ll have noticed that is also enough superficial, sometimes  pretentious and others erroneous… Well, it´s clear I´m not a Betrand´s fan  ;D.

Title: Re: Cestrosphendone
Post by MiXoNFLaSHeR on Dec 9th, 2007 at 6:36pm
Maybe the metalic pouch could have a little case to hold the point. Like a wire box or something?

Here is a little info.. http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://forums.sjgames.com/image.php%3Fu%3D2389%26dateline%3D1141999389&imgrefurl=http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php%3Ft%3D19723&h=80&w=62&sz=4&hl=en&start=2&tbnid=lASJ9fZXv6dVAM:&tbnh=74&tbnw=57&prev=/images%3Fq%3DCestrosphendon%26gbv%3D2%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DG

Title: Re: Cestrosphendone
Post by DuckofDeath on Dec 10th, 2007 at 1:42am

Hondero wrote on Dec 9th, 2007 at 3:29am:
Besides, the third fin, that cannot be seen, would be over the cradle making the dart unstable.


I don't understand what you mean by this. If you have a skinny flat piece of wood--like a little ruler--you can lay the dart on it so it balances. The two bottom fins will stick out over the edges of the wood. Now imagine that the ruler is as long as the portion of the dart extending from the point to the back edge of the fins. You attach the two lines of the retention cord to the corners of the back end of the ruler. Then you glue a leather flap to the front end of the ruler and attach the release cord to the flap. Finally, you attach a bent piece of sheet metal to the flap to hold the point. Perhaps that is what the bottom half of Bertrand's flap is...      

Title: Re: Cestrosphendone
Post by Hondero on Dec 10th, 2007 at 3:41am
[quote author=DuckofDeath link=1074713443/285#291 date=1197268933
If you have a skinny flat piece of wood--like a little ruler--you can lay the dart on it so it balances. The two bottom fins will stick out over the edges of the wood.
[/quote]

I understand you but what i said was that the drawing of Bertrand was somewhat wrong, confuse, because in the way he has drawn the dart, the two fins can not stick out over the edges of the wood because the third fin would lean vertically over the flat piece of wood. So, a retention cord that starts from the little pouch under the point and separates in two cords under the fins that are seen, passing the third fin(not seen) between them, would be the other interpreattion of the drawing. Ah, my english is the problem, i suspect. But your idea is feasible if you place the dart propperly over the flat wood. If you try it tell us the results please :)

Title: Re: Cestrosphendone
Post by DuckofDeath on Dec 10th, 2007 at 2:34pm

Hondero wrote on Dec 10th, 2007 at 3:41am:
Ah, my english is the problem, i suspect.


On the contrary, your English is quite understandable. I simply thought that you were saying there would be a problem placing the dart on the cradle, when in fact you were pointing out that in the drawing the dart doesn't look centered on the cradle.  


Quote:
If you try it tell us the results please


Well, since you've actually built your own dart and a sling incorporating Bertrand's "dart hanging at an angle" feature, it might be easier for you to add a cradle to that and see if it makes any difference...  

Title: Re: Cestrosphendone
Post by DuckofDeath on Dec 10th, 2007 at 2:39pm

MiXoNFLaSHeR wrote on Dec 9th, 2007 at 6:36pm:
metalic pouch


I think you're on to something here. A curved metal hinge or a curved piece of metal sheet attached to a flexible flap would secure the point without giving the point anything to snag on.

Title: Re: Cestrosphendone
Post by Hondero on Dec 13th, 2007 at 8:34am
Just a picture throwing the cestros. There are some new clips in youtube (search hondero191).



Title: Re: Cestrosphendone
Post by Tint on Dec 13th, 2007 at 3:20pm
Wow!  You rock!.....I mean that's no"rock"......umm.....you rock at cestros!

Title: Re: Cestrosphendone
Post by Hondero on Dec 14th, 2007 at 11:34am

Tint wrote on Dec 13th, 2007 at 3:20pm:
Wow!  You rock!.....I mean that's no"rock"......umm.....you rock at cestros!



¡Hi Tint, thanks for rating my clip!  :)

Title: Re: Cestrosphendone
Post by Hondero on Jan 8th, 2008 at 1:46pm

DuckofDeath wrote on Dec 10th, 2007 at 2:34pm:
Well, since you've actually built your own dart and a sling incorporating Bertrand's "dart hanging at an angle" feature, it might be easier for you to add a cradle to that and see if it makes any difference...  



After these hollidays I retake the work on kestros  :) I think you are right about the Bertrand drawing and that it try to sketch a long pouch, so, to be precise, I´m going to modify the picture of the differentes ways to throw the cestros I´ve included before. But to use a rigid pouch as if it were a launching pad, though it may direct the dart a little better than a flexible pouch, it generates more air drag in the throwing, not allowing great ranges. Besides, such a rigid pouch would had been described specifically by Polibius, what neither he nor Livius did. I think that the drawing of Bertrand can represent really a conventional pouch stretched by the weight of the dart. When I began to practice with the Kestros some years ago I remember I made one first sling thus, nevertheless I saw that the dart really did not lean in it, but in the end and the two cords below the fins, so the sling could be made without that long pouch and replace it by a small pouch only for the point and a small loop to hold the tail, as in the equivalente design I use instead the one of Bertrand. A so long pouch also produced much friction with the air when casting. It is evident in addition that a conventional pouch constrain Bertrand to place the fins very advanced, decreasing the stabilization of the dart in the flight and making that long tail completely needless. Everything point out that the Bertand design is a bad solution. My adaptation of his design does not need an advanced position of the fins, has a  configuration much more aerodynamic of the pouch and the balance of the dart in it is equally good.

Title: Re: Cestrosphendone
Post by DuckofDeath on Aug 30th, 2008 at 12:36pm
Interesting thread on this Latin forum:

http://latinforum.org/viewtopic.php?t=4539

Title: Re: Cestrosphendone
Post by wannabeslinger on Aug 31st, 2008 at 10:19pm
I made a a dart today. I used a metal tube that I flattened at the end and sharpered to a point also and I think it will work well once I make a proper sling for it.

thanks for the idea

ill sub on youtube if I havent already

Title: Re: Cestrosphendone
Post by DuckofDeath on Dec 24th, 2008 at 2:46am
How did it go?

Title: Re: Cestrosphendone
Post by David Morningstar on Jan 11th, 2009 at 4:33pm
Some more Latin types having a crack at Cestros translations....

http://www.textkit.com/greek-latin-forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=8956

Title: Re: Cestrosphendone
Post by Hondero on Jan 13th, 2009 at 12:11pm
Hi friends… Ah! it have passed a year since my last post here, although I enter to read from time to time. As said in Reply 283, wich show the different designs of the cestros sling, I was working with a new design that could be the original Macedonian.  Past summer I´ve tested the design exhaustively and have found that is the best of all others. It locates the point of attachment of the dart over the fins, like in the Hollenback design.
Thanks David M. for that link on Latin, it´s awesome that somebody has raised the text of Livius on the cestros there and I wonder if Archimedes is a buddy of this forum too. I like his interpretation of the text since it agrees with my new design. I will enter that Latin forum to continuing commenting the text with them to see if we all are able to definitively clarify the mystery of the cestros.


Usually, priority is given to the cestros text of Polibius since it is previous and apparently Livius was inspired by him. Nevertheless, the text of Livius is more explicit in the description of the most enigmatic part of the weapon: the way of atachement  of the dart to the sling. As I said at the beginning of the topic, Livius uses the mysterious word " scutalia" , very rare in Latin, so rare that it only appears twice in all kept Latin texts, being the second time also by him in a text that describes the Achaean  sling: “et est non simplicis habenae, ut Balearic aliarumque gentium funda, sed triplex scutale, crebis suturis duratum…” (and were not made of two single strap, like those of the Balearic slingers, but they consist of three thongs, stiffen by being sewn together…). Here the mysterious word does not show any ambiguity since it talks about a pouch made of three pieces or strips of leather sewn to each other to make the concave shape of the pouch. And in my opinion that is the real meaning of the word “scutale” (plural scutalia): pouch or part of the pouch. And according to this meaning, the correct translation of the text of Livius “funda media duo scutalia imparia habebat” would be: the middle of the sling (that is, the pouch) was formed by two unequal pieces. We would have then a splitted pouch, but unlike the habitual thing, one of the parts would be longer than the other.

I always have interpreted the word “scutale” like pouch, and my first design, based on Bertrand´s one, interpreted the text “funda media duo scutalia imparia habebat” like a sling with two little pouches in its center to attach the dart ends. This design have some problems with the point, that nail the leather of the little pouch and makes necessary a sophisticated design to avoid it, as was seen in the thread. Eventually I thought on the other possible interpretation, very bizarre, a pouch made of two unequal parts or pieces. I made that sling and try to attach the dart to it by the fins, the only possibility to do it. After some castings I knew this design was a success. The inequality of the two “scutalia” allows the attachement so that the longest “scutale” partially surrounds the tail of the dart making it to leave straight, without deviation. The pictures clarify better what I say.



The text of Polibius is more generic in the description of the sling, more ambiguous, and it has been translated generally in the sense that the two thongs of the sling were of different length, which have conditioned the translation of Livius text in the same sense. We have to consider that the linguistics and translators are not experts in armament, and not dedicated either to experimental research, reason why they make common or banal interpretations of the ancient weapons they describe.

The sling is simple to make and the pouch is an evolution from a conventional splitted one, that can be used too to cast the cestros but with more oscillation and less control. The ranges are spectacular, 100 or 150 meters can easily be reached depending on the weight of the dart.

Title: Re: Cestrosphendone
Post by David Morningstar on Jan 13th, 2009 at 1:01pm
Fantastic news, Hondero! Do you have video yet? What are your length of sling and dart construction details?

Title: Re: Cestrosphendone
Post by wanderer on Jan 15th, 2009 at 8:38am
Hondero - that's brilliant.

It seems so darn obvious after the fact.

Title: Re: Cestrosphendone
Post by DuckofDeath on Jan 15th, 2009 at 11:55pm

Hondero wrote on Jan 13th, 2009 at 12:11pm:
Past summer I´ve tested the design exhaustively and have found that is the best of all others. It locates the point of attachment of the dart over the fins, like in the Hollenback design.


Earlier you bad-mouthed the Hollenback design when you recreated it. I noticed then that you had the cord touching the leading edge of all three fins. Now it's touching the leading edge of only two fins. Did that make a difference?  

Title: Re: Cestrosphendone
Post by Hondero on Jan 16th, 2009 at 7:25am
Thanks David M. and Wonderer for your interest. The details of construction of the dart according to classic texts are throughout the thread, although darts with other somewhat different measures, slighter and more aerodynamic, can be constructed to get better stability and ranges. I believe that an interpretation of texts does not have to be rigid and we know that the more distance between  the fins and the center of gravity of the dart will be the more stability. As far as the sling, any length can be used, although it is necessary to consider the launching style. If it is underhand it will be necessary to take care the dart does not strike the ground, and the sling will have to be short. I use an average sling normally, of about 80 cm (doubled), with spinning in an inclined plane. Generally, whatever is the launching style, the trajectory will have to be ample so that the dart makes the smaller possible angle with the cords at the time of the casting. It is necessary to get used to cast the cestros, because it is something different to cast a stone.

Title: Re: Cestrosphendone
Post by Hondero on Jan 16th, 2009 at 11:48am

DuckofDeath wrote on Jan 15th, 2009 at 11:55pm:
Earlier you bad-mouthed the Hollenback design when you recreated it...



Well pointed out, my friend,  ;D . I must confess that the first time I saw the design of Hollenback, with that short leather tube that is not a pouch, and the whole device  that is not a sling, I was enough irritated. I had the feel that first he had made a device that worked more or less well to cast a dart and after he had tried to handle arbitrary the text of Polibius so to match the device. I could have done the same with my design n. 6 in the Replay 283, that works better than Hollenback n.5, and the ambiguous part of the Polibius text would have match too, but I was sure that mine was not the macedonian design, like also I´m sure it isn´t  the one of Hollenback. If Polibius had wanted to describe this tube to direct the dart I think he could have done with the precise words.

In the case of my last design the process has been the contrary. I looked first for a new interpretation of the Livius text, and found a reasonable one. Then I tested it in spite of being very odd such sling with a splitted asymmetric pouch. But it worked very well. Obviously I realized that apparently the design was based technically on similar bases to Holl. design, which irritated me once more, ha ha.

The design of Holl. have enough operation difficulties, and peculiarly he attributes to this that the cestros was left by the Greeks, but I had the impression that he tries to justify his own difficulties. He says that the design of the fins is very critical, defined by a strict geometric formulation, so that a small variation in its design, imperceptible in view, can cause that the device does not work well. All this seems to me too truculent. In my design that does not happen and the design of the fins admits variations, not being necessary to carefully keep a mysterious template and formula on which to exactly reproduce the fins of all the cestros to be made, as he says it was necessary. These and others personal and arbitrary conjectures don´t give, in my opinion, the necessary scientific validity to the article of Holl.

The difference of Holl. design and mine is not the number of fins that touch the cord. It was an error in the drawing of Replay 283  and the cord also touch only two fins in the design of Hall. I believe that the real difference is based on the damn leather tube, that give very little freedom to the dart and facilitates the jam with the cords, for which Holl must use that precise design of the fins that does not let slip the dart in the spinning, on one hand, and by another not entangle in the casting. In my design, the tail of the dart is placed with  freedom in the loop formed by the branches of the pouch, and these problems of design of the fins doesn´t exist.
Nevertheless, I recognize that Hollenback has made a good approach to the cestros real design by positioning the attachment of the cords on the fins. I think is necessary to continue analyzing  Polibius text under the perspective of different designs.

Title: Re: Cestrosphendone
Post by Thomas on Jan 16th, 2009 at 1:56pm
Hondero

This newest proposal will allow a relatively high rate of fire. The sideways/to rotation position of the dart is the most practical real world approach and allows more latitude of style. Proper cord design combined with balance are the key ingredients that makes this work, also a slight disregard for the law of momentum which states, an object released from an arced (arcuate) path must continue on at 90 degrees to the release point. For our purposes, HOGWASH, if in the absence of air resistance the outstretched retention cord in its arc would follow and pass the line of flight of a tumbling dart. This scenario is cut short by air resistance, hence our sling slows after release and darts go out quickly reoriented to a very slightly less distance but deadly to be sure.

Here is a related thread.

http://slinging.org/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1105387499/0


tom            

Title: Re: Cestrosphendone
Post by Hondero on Jan 17th, 2009 at 1:10pm

Thomas wrote on Jan 16th, 2009 at 1:56pm:
Proper cord design combined with balance are the key ingredients that makes this work...

An object released from an arced (arcuate) path must continue on at 90 degrees to the release point....
tom            



Hi Thomas,

You are right,  it is very important the contact surface between fin and cord to be enough so that they do not nail and make a tangle at snap. For that reason the cord must be of some width (or a leather strip) and the fin not to be too thin although light (to be reject metallic fins).

About physics of the casting, as you say, it was spoken enough in the link you point out. Btw,I know that the drawing at the starting of the thread is not  correct as it was a simplification so that the idea was understood easily. In fact, as we said at the time, the throwing trajectory is not exactly circular but spiral. In addition, the dart goes delayed with respect to the hand, reason why when the release takes place, although it leaves tangential to the trajectory, it moves towards the target. Certain that initially it leaves somewhat crossed with respect to his movement towards the target, but because the center of gravity is near the point it is reoriented immediately.

Title: Re: Cestrosphendone
Post by mgreenfield on Jan 17th, 2009 at 8:42pm
Well congratulations, Hondero, you persistent scholar!  I say you've solved the Cestros riddle!!  This for two reason:  

1/ It's a simple adaption of the basic sling design.   Some ancient soldier with a split-pocket sling probably was messing around and figured out that he could launch heavy hand-darts with his sling.  Bet that made him a real celebrity around the camp.

2/ It works.

I'm glad I stopped in just at the right time to see you do this.

The Cestros mystery seems to be one of the last to be solved of all the slinging mysteries tackled years ago when this forum was young.    Seems like now we've got sling design and construction figured out.  Also, how to use the things.

One last mystery is how very light elliptical glands were used; the ones under 15-20gm in weight.

Again, congratulations, and best wishes always!

MikeG

Title: Re: Cestrosphendone
Post by Hondero on Jan 18th, 2009 at 7:32am
Mgreenfield, old friend! , I am glad too to see you here again and that you follow so enthusiastic as ever. I remember the first times here, with those good guys like Whipartist, David-T, Yurek, Johnny, etc. Those were good times but the old rockers never die and is a pleasure to meet them from time to time. Thanks for your opinions on the new design of the cestros, although I would not surprise if somebody find another new design also effective. The great mysteries usually are ageless.

Another riddle is that of little glands, indeed. Why don´t you restart the topic? I promise some comments and perhaps somebody has experimented with them.

Salud,
Hondero

Title: Re: Cestrosphendone
Post by mrboss on Jan 19th, 2009 at 6:15pm
hmm. that looks like, it would possibly have greater ranges than a bow and arrow! As long as the arrow is heavy enough. does anyone think so?????????

Title: Re: Cestrosphendone
Post by Unsapien on Jan 22nd, 2009 at 1:39am
Please keep the research up!

I am considering commissioning a friend of mine who makes beautiful hand made arrows to make darts for me. I need to construct that form of sling however.

On that note feel free to send me the dimensions and specs for any dart design you might come up with. He is rather talented in this field, so I am sure he would make something flight worthy.

-Unsapien

Title: Re: Cestrosphendone
Post by Chaotic Rage on Jan 25th, 2009 at 12:55pm
I also read this thread from time to time popping back in. Great work Hondero, on figuring out the secret of the cestrosphendone! This is easily one of the most interesting of the ancient weapons.

Title: Re: Cestrosphendone
Post by David Morningstar on Jun 23rd, 2009 at 4:01am
This might be useful as supporting evidence: http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=6jjsJ9NP6hYC&pg=PT125&lpg=PT125&dq=sardinia+sling&source=bl&ots=w7e725jlaI&sig=Wkf7SiSNXDrxu1sMjdiZDfDspys&hl=en&ei=YIlASvGtLpSDjAeIvq29Ag&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=9

It mentions Virgil (Georg. 1.309): Balearis verbera fundae (thongs of a Balearic sling)





Title: Re: Cestrosphendone
Post by DuckofDeath on Aug 29th, 2009 at 5:40pm
Has this article link been posted on this thread yet? I don't recall seeing it before.

http://perso.wanadoo.es/hondero/CESTROSPHENDONE.articulo.pdf


Title: Re: Cestrosphendone
Post by Rat Man on Aug 29th, 2009 at 6:23pm
Cool stuff, Hondero.  Thanks.

Title: Re: Cestrosphendone
Post by Eoraptor on Aug 29th, 2009 at 9:17pm
Huh, I've never even heard of this before.  Cool stuff... I might have to try and make one.   :)
Thanks for sharing.

Title: Re: Cestrosphendone
Post by DuckofDeath on Sep 7th, 2009 at 1:43am
Bertrand's article and accompanying illustration online:

http://www.archive.org/stream/revuearcheologi27pari#page/73/mode/1up

http://www.archive.org/stream/revuearcheologi27pari#page/n454/mode/1up

Enjoy.


Title: Re: Cestrosphendone
Post by DuckofDeath on Sep 8th, 2009 at 2:44am
If the links don't open up at the right spot, flip to page 73 according to the page counter to get to the beginning of the article and page 454 according to the page counter to get to the illustration of the cestrosphendone.    

Title: Re: Cestrosphendone
Post by David Morningstar on Sep 8th, 2009 at 3:27am

They opened okay for me. Good find.

Title: Re: Cestrosphendone
Post by Hondero on Dec 26th, 2011 at 9:50am
I realized that my kestros were sleeping for nearly three years, and also that I had not recorded any clip with the latest (and I hope final) design, so I enjoyed playing cestrosphendone last weeks and recording some clips to edit a short video. The dart has the same length as the classic kestro described  by Livius and Polybius (37.5 cm.), but I made it lighter and thinner, with the fins more behind. The point is also shorter and made of an iron pipe filled with lead halfway approx. The center of gravity is thus displaced towards the tip to 25% of the total length.  All this makes the stabilization of the dart better. Although the throws in the video are made with half power to get the dart caught in the image, a normal power slinger (like me) can easily reach the 100 meters with a dart of 100 gr. like this of the video. And I'm sure a good long-range slinger can reach 200 m. or more.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZ_N3AXLctc

(I do not know why appears publicity in the video as I have not asked for it)

Merry Christmas everyone!

Title: Re: Cestrosphendone
Post by Matt Borel on Dec 26th, 2011 at 4:06pm
Excellent, Hondero. I was thinking while watching that you could really make that thing take off, but as you mentioned, we would not see it in the video, and you would spend forever chasing down your dart. With all the vegetation where I live, every long throw would be a loss. Thanks for going back and documenting this.

Title: Re: Cestrosphendone
Post by Jaegoor on Dec 26th, 2011 at 4:10pm
Absolut cool 8-) 8-) :o

Title: Re: Cestrosphendone
Post by David Morningstar on Dec 27th, 2011 at 10:23am
A volley of those would certainly get your attention  :o

Title: Re: Cestrosphendone
Post by Masiakasaurus on Jan 1st, 2012 at 12:09am
Off topic replies have been moved to This Thread

Title: Re: Cestrosphendone
Post by Hondero on Jan 4th, 2012 at 1:00pm
Matt, I´d like to get a high speed camera to catch the whole launch process, but my little camera has done its best. Thanks for your interest.

Jaegoor, the weapon is really amazing and to throw a dart and see how it flies is a very rewarding experience.

David, really  the style is like a tennis volley or drive, with the arm stretched to do a wide spinning. It is not easy at first as it has nothing to do with throwing a stone.

Title: Re: Cestrosphendone
Post by Jaegoor on Jan 4th, 2012 at 4:22pm
Hondero:

I have shot up to now my arrows with this Sling. I like your method, however, much better.


Forum4klein.jpg (50 KB | )

Title: Re: Cestrosphendone
Post by Hondero on Jan 5th, 2012 at 11:19am

Jaegoor wrote on Jan 4th, 2012 at 4:22pm:
Hondero:

I have shot up to now my arrows with this Sling. I like your method, however, much better.



Pretty sling, this design was the first I tried and it works also well, but the problem was that the  point nail the pouch, as you´ll have noticed. The solution is to use a rounded point or to place a little piece of leather between the point and the pouch. Nice that we are at least two cestrosphendoners :)

Title: Re: Cestrosphendone
Post by Jaegoor on Jan 5th, 2012 at 11:32am
Hondero

one can solve this problem also differently.

Simply do not put then arrow in the middle.

The centrifugal force does not press then arrow then any more with the point in the leather.

Title: Re: Cestrosphendone
Post by Hondero on Jan 5th, 2012 at 1:53pm
I don´t understand clearly how you place the dart in the sling, perhaps a drawing or a photo will clarify it to me. Do you mean  the point is placed on an end of the pouch?

Title: Re: Cestrosphendone
Post by David Morningstar on Jan 5th, 2012 at 3:55pm
Or do you place it with the tail in the pouch and the point in the loop?

Title: Re: Cestrosphendone
Post by Matt Borel on Jan 6th, 2012 at 6:18pm
Hondero, your mentioning the throw being different than for a stone got me wondering.
1. What is, or what seems to be the reason for this? Weight? Length? Release trajectory?
2. Could you imagine a staff sling setup as being a reasonable way to launch a dart? For example, your sling design attached to a staff. This would require a relatively overhead/overhand release, of course. If not, what problems do you imagine?

Thanks,
Matt

Title: Re: Cestrosphendone
Post by Aussie on Jan 6th, 2012 at 10:08pm
Wondered about that myself. The way it's held in the special sling means it initially launches sideways to the direction of motion and has to right itself to fly point forward.

However, once it's stabilized, it should have great velocity retention due to its aerodynamic shape. Also being quite short and stiff in comparison with an arrow that sharpened broadhead point would be ultra-lethal giving great penetration, and much deadlier than an equivalent weight stone.

Incidentally, David Engvall's special distance record setting dart was attached to its sling at the point of balance and rotated point forward at all times, thus would have been more ergonomically efficient at the cost of being more complicated.

Title: Re: Cestrosphendone
Post by Hondero on Jan 7th, 2012 at 12:45pm

Matt Borel wrote on Jan 6th, 2012 at 6:18pm:
Hondero, your mentioning the throw being different than for a stone got me wondering.
1. What is, or what seems to be the reason for this? Weight? Length? Release trajectory?
2. Could you imagine a staff sling setup as being a reasonable way to launch a dart? For example, your sling design attached to a staff. This would require a relatively overhead/overhand release, of course. If not, what problems do you imagine?



The reason why the cestrosphendon need a special throwing stye has to do, in my opinion, with the conservation of angular momentum. In a conventional sling the main thing is the speed you give to the stone at the release time. So any style is good if the projectile at that speed is released towards the target, flying tangent to the throwing tarjectory. In fact, the throw is a suddent pull forward after spinning a little to give some tension to the cords. The  pouch, by the efect of inertia, remains backwards, and only when the arm stops reaching its maximum extent pointed towards the target, is when the pouch describe a nearly 90-degree arc until the projectile is in the tangent to the target, which is the instant to release it.

In the cestrosphendone, the throwing trajectory is wider and the aceleración is progresive and smooth so that the pouch does not remain far behind to avoid the 90 degree turn and the corresponding high angular velocity at the release point, that makes the dart to spin itself around its balance center and fly erratic.

About staff-sling, I haven´t tried it but may be is the same problem at the final part of the launching: a high angular aceleration. Nevertheless it would be interesting to try it  and see what happens.

Title: Re: Cestrosphendone
Post by Hondero on Jan 7th, 2012 at 1:35pm
Aussie, you're right that the dart is released crossed into the path toward the target and has to be stabilized in flight. To this it helps the principle of conservation of angular momentum, which makes the dart turn toward the target, even too much, causing a wobble that stabilizes soon.
The David Engevall´s apparatus is really a cestrosphendone oriented not to war but to set a distance record. Requires an attachement similar to a fishing swivel that allows the dart fly right in the spinning, without following the twisting motion of the cords. I guess the Macedonians did not know this type of devices because they had adopted them if posible to adapt to a kestros :).

Title: Re: Cestrosphendone
Post by David Morningstar on Jan 7th, 2012 at 4:03pm
I still dont understand why they didnt just tie a length of string to the dart and let them fly together.

Title: Re: Cestrosphendone
Post by xxkid123 on Jan 7th, 2012 at 4:22pm

David Morningstar wrote on Jan 7th, 2012 at 4:03pm:
I still dont understand why they didnt just tie a length of string to the dart and let them fly together.


well with a cestros if you were a slinger you would be using a skill you already knew. there's a few differences, but i assume the motion would still be pretty similar. plus you could still sling rocks out of a cestros modified sling (you would probably have to add a few knots to shorten the release cord), so they didn't have to pull out a different sling. plus with much use and drilling it would probably be faster to load.

Title: Re: Cestrosphendone
Post by Aussie on Jan 7th, 2012 at 4:47pm

David Morningstar wrote on Jan 7th, 2012 at 4:03pm:
I still dont understand why they didnt just tie a length of string to the dart and let them fly together.


Because the trailing string would cause an enormous amount of drag significantly reducing the range.

Title: Re: Cestrosphendone
Post by Matt Borel on Jan 7th, 2012 at 5:53pm
Plus, with a string attached, it could be thrown right back at you. If your darts and unequal-length sling split were even somewhat proprietary in geometry, it would be difficult for your enemy to do much more than fling it with the bare hand.

Title: Re: Cestrosphendone
Post by jlasud on Jan 8th, 2012 at 8:27am
yep,and it's a waste of cord,which has to be spun and carried,then thrown. But the main problem would be the huge drag,like Aussie says,greatly affecting range.And as far as our modern experiences with the cestro,it has significantly less range than traditional sling ammo so adding more drag would be just a pure degradation.

Title: Re: Cestrosphendone
Post by Hondero on Jan 8th, 2012 at 12:11pm

jlasud wrote on Jan 8th, 2012 at 8:27am:
... And as far as our modern experiences with the cestro,it has significantly less range than traditional sling ammo...


Not a significative less range, about a 20% less, what in my case is around 100 m. with a cestros of 100 gr. As I´ve said before, I think a good long range slinger can reach 200 m. or more.

Title: Re: Cestrosphendone
Post by jlasud on Jan 8th, 2012 at 12:55pm
compared to stones ,a cestro has similar range,compared to lead,~half the range

Title: Re: Cestrosphendone
Post by Hondero on Jan 8th, 2012 at 1:23pm
That´s why the glandes remained and the cestros died soon ;)

Title: Re: Cestrosphendone
Post by vetryan15 on Nov 29th, 2015 at 8:04pm
Such a great thread.  Could this possible get a sticky?  I know it's been dead for a while, but tons of great information.

Ryan

Title: Re: Cestrosphendone
Post by jax on May 17th, 2016 at 10:24pm
sayin

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